Are there any / have you encountered any Jehovah's Witnesses with ASD?
Are there any / have you encountered any Jehovah's Witnesses with ASD?
This is in relation to someone else posting, claiming that support & books can help those with autism into work.
Think about it logically. If a person can learn social skills etc from a book, then perhaps they never had autism. It's more likely that they just weren't socialised or exposed to those things in an absorbable way or when young. With true autism, people can be exposed to the right social skills in the right ways, but they just don't have Neurotypical potential.
My Asperger's syndrome is not considered severe by professionals. However, they're not the ones who have it. I get it to extremes with every sense. Just neighbours walking across their room upstairs (that no one else can even hear), makes me feel like my head is being walked on by them. It's been proven the best way to alleviate sensory overload is to take the person away from the trigger. For many people with autism, just going out of their home is the trigger. And that makes it impossible for them to work. They will know themselves if they can't work, no matter how much support is given. But they can find themselves forced into work programs. Which usually won't help even if aimed at those with autism. But it can cause further long lasting damage to them mentally.
I'm unable to recognise peoples faces. I also can't read facial expressions. Books and support can't help, this is just one of many incurable elements. Which causes offence to many. My memory is also very bad. Many people with autism go undiagnosed, because they've been forced to conform. They then suffer in silence at home. I was forced by the jobcentre to attend in my 20s. After every visit it caused sensory overload. I'd be left unable to function & bedridden for weeks. They never even knew, they hadn't a clue what suffering they caused. They just assumed & still assume that everyone can work with 'the right support'.
There's also the fact that autism is usually co-morbid. With severe depression & other mental health issues being common. And drugs often don't help or the person won't take them. I get blackouts & absences. From research it seems others with autism also often get this type of thing. It would be illogical to assume a book will help those with true autism. Even NTs have some elements of autism, but not to the extremes most of us do. Maybe books are utilized by those who are self diagnosed or a relative. I know those with autism have written books & they've felt positives doing that. But it's false hope to imply books will generally offer those with autism a coping mechanism to get them into work.
NAS15840 said:The effects of ASD can be coped with, but they can’t be removed, as much as I’ve learned to cope, to deal with things and make something out of life I still and always will have ASD, nothing can teach that out of me.
I'm unsure as I'm open to the possibility that ASD are curable as they have not been PROVEN to be genetic or incurable.
I know how to profile, read body language, understand how to respond in certain situations
Where did you learn about it from?
I think that those at the higher functioning end of the ASD spectrum can generally sort their own lives out, we should help ourselves. I’m not saying that we should be thrown to the wolves, but there is a huge amount of information and assistance available online, books which teach coping mechanisms etc. It’s not that there should be no help, it’s the level of help, too many people seem to want everything handed to them, for taxpayers to provide for everything. We have to play the hand we’re dealt, sure would life have been easier if I didn’t have ASD, almost certainly yes, would have it been easier if I was diagnosed at school, almost certainly yes, but I can’t change the past, I have to deal with the now. I’ve found ways to deal with the major downsides of my ASD, there are people in far greater need than me, the taxpayer funds should go to them first, I don’t need state assistance, my friend’s son who has severe ASD will need care his whole life, I wouldn’t want to take anything away from him or seem him denied so I could have something I didn’t need or could provide myself.
If that's your attitude then it provides a damn good reason for the NAS to get out of AS and high-functioning ASD altogether and concentrating on providing schools and care services for people at the more extreme end of the spectrum rather than cruelly deceiving people with AS and high-functioning ASD and their families they have something to offer when they damn well don't. It upsets me to know how many people with AS and high-functioning ASD have wasted time and energy with the NAS because it's what the education system or the NHS recommended to them.
Could you name any of these books which teach coping mechanisms?
NAS15840 said:Education really doesn’t make people dangerous
I would dispute this...
there is no “state propaganda” in the UK
Yes there is. The school curriculum set by the governments of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Schools have to teach this and cannot opt out or change the curriculum to meet the requirements of local communities or individual children.
we have a free press who can and regularly do criticise whatever government is in power
Free press?? Believe anything. Governments can stop news sources from publishing leaked confidential information by people like Edward Snowden. Broadcast media is regulated by OFCOM. Upset them, like Press TV, did and they will take your channel off air.
we have the internet where people are free to share ideas and there is a culture of the free exchange of information
The police and security services can shut down websites under the flimsy pretext of terrorism or threat to national security. Police chiefs have also threatened people with jail for downloading controversial material from the internet such as video footage of the beheading of the journalist James Foley by Mohammed Emwazi / Jihadi John, or the so called Al-Qaeda Training Manual which is not an Al-Qaeda publication, has an ISBN number, and is 100% legal to possess in the US and sold in many bookshops there.
IQ is also largely genetic, it doesn’t go up or down based on schooling, her being in a home school environment will not have changed her IQ from what it would have been in a normal school environment.
IF IQ is largely genetic then it makes a mockery of the one size to fit all state school curricula.
Religion is the opium of the masses. The problem with opium is that it’s highly addictive, clouds your judgement and it’s incredibly hard to get clean.
It's a debatable subject but it's a good thing you are not a member of the NAS with that attitude because it would be a total turn off to families that are religious who require services of the NAS.
MattBucks,
I get why you can't discuss things about religion with any coherent argument. When you can't disprove something you just cry trolling!
Where's your responses?
1) 'The life is in the blood' doesn't say what part of the blood. Blood has many elements that themselves aren't always deemed blood- such as stem cells.
2) It's accepted by science that unborn children DO exist. The law simply chooses to prevent rights of personhood. If you're telling me you really don't know unborn children are made by conception, that's very worrying. Doctors have historically been taught to keep up with the needs of society. Society refuses to acknowledge life unless it resembles their own ie able to live independently, breath unaided, use toilet etc. Society has blackmailed DRs to abort. Drs have been sued for not killing children.
3) The press have a 'special relationship' with the big wigs in society. Big wigs & even the press constantly take out gagging orders, even when there's no leak yet.
Now now you two ...........calm down :)
What an interesting discussion/argument, thanks for making some very pertinent points.
Mattbucks I would disagree with you on your premise the main stream media are not biased. The two recent referendums I have been involved with (Scotland/EU) have proved to me beyond a shadow of doubt the media take sides based on the beliefs of the owners, generally very wealthy members of the elite "Establishment" who are closely tied up with politicians. Like big business lobbyists they "buy" influence indirectly by making donations to political parties or by wining and dining etc.
There are revolving doors between the media and politics. Well documented cases exist.
You scratch my back now and I will scratch your back sometime in the future.
In that respect I agree with ClairHig in that rich people just want to get richer and they actually will do almost anything to make that happen including not allowing the facts to get in the way of a good story. (fake news and post -truth era has existed for a long time before it became a twitter hashtag)
All religions were created to control the masses and scare them into doing what they are told to do. They are self-preservation societies protecting the elites from anarchy.
The French revolution is an example of what can happen when the masses get out of control. Civil war results as we see in the Middle East today.
In secular society the law does the same job through the process of democracy (in theory) sadly democracy can be manipulated by clever politicians to personal gain.
The "Old Boy" networks of the private school education system and Oxbridge universities keeps most of us excluded from the ruling elites and lucrative employment positions where its not what you know but who you know that gets you success.
Some form of consensus is essential for a civilised society to exist be that a common religious belief and code of conduct or a democratic system of the rule of law and judicial enforcement. What really annoys me is when such a system is surpassed by unscrupulous elitism. If there is no trust in the system to be fair it will collapse into anarchy.
MattBucks,
You're coming across as naïve. The press largely do what they can to make money. Telling the truth in many situation won't make money. A prime example is Jimmy Saville. His activities were common knowledge to many. But it literally paid to keep it hidden, so all did.
The same is true for abortion. It's not just my view that it kills unborn children. It's an undisputed fact, even science admits they're existing human beings. The difference is they don't make money. It's easy to dehumanize & kill a person that's hidden away behind closed doors so to speak. The parents can then remain chained to the work house.
Many politicians also voted to kill disabled people without their consent via Liverpool care pathway. Under the guise of quality of life. The government also frequently shuts down benefits for the disabled. Proving that their motives aren't really quality of life. Their motives are producing elite high earners & eradicating dependants. Correct me if I'm wrong but that was also hitlers plan.
The bible doesn't support slavery, abortion etc. The problem is that I've seen people twist the bible to mean what they like. Which is what Muslim extremist do with the Koran. For example slavery & prostitution did exist in the time of Jesus, but it wasn't promoted by Jesus. The audience simply included them. And sacrifice of a born child to show devotion was requested by god. However the request turned out to be symbolic for devotion, the killing didn't occur.
I think you're projecting your own inability to care about others feelings or emotional wellbeing onto others. It's common for those with autism to have rigid thought processes & inflexible thinking. Or perhaps this is just a family trait. Which could explain why your aunt was not happy within your family & left for JW, who were maybe more flexible.
The JW I've seen don't go into fake rooms with fake interactions. They were out meeting people within their community, gaining skills as they go along. You seem to be coming across as a bit jealous.
FYI society existed without modern laws. In fact the Amish in America have proven that small communities governing themselves from within, often provides the happiest & healthiest society. But what we have here in UK is the opposite. The whole country is governed primarily from afar, by the most egotistical ignorant & arrogant.
I have known JW myself so I have first hand experience of them. In some respects I think they are bit naive, not very academically bright but they are not thick or uneducated as they appear to have mastered the primary school basics, and sometimes ignorant and unwilling to research or investigate certain things deeper. What is noticeable about them is that they are always very polite and well mannered and presentable people who seem to have good knowledge of etiquette and unwritten social rules. Remember that they deal with people on the doorstep from across the spectrum of society from council estates to affluent suburbs so they must have the abilities to communicate across this spectrum.
I think MattBucks is cutting himself a bit short by focusing on indoctrination and failing to look into the JW in sufficient detail from every perspective. How are they with people when not trying to indoctrinate them at the doorstep?
There is definitely evidence that the worst effects of AS can be overcome by the right sort of social skills training and not allowing children to get stressed out and bullied at school, or made to feel like they are failures and losers. Reading between the lines MattBucks looks like he is trying to say that you can't really do anything to help people with AS socially they are what they are so it's up to them to sort their own lives out. I disagree with him.
Politicians are just trying to convert you all to their ideals. But I don't see you equally slagging them off here. They're well educated but that just means they're way more dangerous. They know how to use state propaganda to get people to kill their own unborn children, support war etc. In the past politicians even got the public to support capital punishment & slavery. They actually make laws that you MUST follow. Which makes them a real danger.
Jehovah witnesses don't seem to be at all dangerous. Not forcing children to excel at school is the best thing a parent can do. My daughter is home educated AKA community educated. She gets to have her childhood. I don't let a school take it away & manipulate her with state propaganda. She can decide what subjects she enjoys & spend the most time on them. And I must admit she's way better behaved than most school children. Even family say they can see her social skills are highly adept. She also hasn't been fed state propaganda, forcing her to believe the world revolves around her. Her IQ has been assessed as well above average.
I don't know how many of you have actually come across Jehovah's witnesses. Around new year they visited my flats each week for a few months. I don't open my door to anyone. But my neighbours upstairs did. The JW came out in groups of 1 young man/1 elder & 2 young women. The men went to each flat. They were obviously polite. It felt like they wanted to be there. They enjoyed meeting people & struck up a good rapport with those who did speak to them. It was mostly the young man who spoke, he seemed fairly intelligent. But their message seemed very similar to Christians spreading 'the good news'. I doubt anyone joined. The elder was probably there to give them social tips, support & check their abilities.
JW are hardly a secluded society. They are a cult group that is proactive in proselytisation. My concern is the blinkered mindset that many JW have where they discourage the study and research of secular materials apart from that required for a school education or in connection with a trade. That way their members are likely to be behind the curve when it comes to ASD unless they recruit new members who have knowledge of ASD.
The 'social skills' training adds a new dimension to the picture that doesn't exist with most other religions.
JW don't push children hard with education. They tell them to do their best at school but rarely do they strive for A grades, especially in 'hard' subjects. JW also seem to be more towards the arts and cultural things rather than STEM subjects.
I'm strongly agnostic. It's not possible to know, so I don't guess. As a rule most scientists just make 'educated guesses' AKA 'best guesses'. They encourage us to as well. But some things are too important to speculate.
If researching secluded societies such as Amish, orthodox Jews & Jehovah's witnesses there's little information about autism. Many claim the lifestyle of wholesome organic foods, calm modest upbringing, etc could itself prevent autism. Immunisation of babies is also rare. Babies only receive the natural protection *** milk offers. It seems unlikely there would be no incidence of autism. Even if the gene pool doesn't include those with autism. Within closed off communities, there may be little point for diagnosis. But those living within UK would probably be unable to avoid forced midwife/health visitor visits. 'High functioning autism' may get away with being deemed shy. But those more severely affected might receive treatment. In some communities in US where there is no outside healthcare, autistic behaviour might be confused with brain damage. In such societies it seems common for elders to set laws, arrange marriages, approve work etc. So even if a person did have autism, they would probably still receive fair treatment.
Arran said:[quote][/quote]
Having ASD and being religious is actually quite rare, there is quite a lot of evidence that shows that having ASD correlates quite strongly with being atheist.
There’s evidence of a “god gene” (or group of interacting genes) which makes people more susceptible to religion (ongoing research may show they aren't present in the majority of those with ASD) and also the fact that those of ASD tend to be more (or even ultra) rational which would push them away from religion. There are exceptions of course and you have to take account of places where it’s not possible to be atheist (Muslim states where apostasy is illegal etc.), but to find someone with ASD at the cult end of the spectrum would be very rare indeed.
I'm not sure that you can justify this. There is probably some truth when it comes to people with ASD of Protestant Christian origin but not other religions.
I'm CofE and ASD. I also have OCD that's scrupulousity!
(I also like bad puns).
JW undergo lots of 'social skills' training for meeting people on the doorstep. Every kingdom hall has its own mock-up front doors inside for them to practice with.
This helps to explain why JW are always so polite and presentable as people when out and about on business. I am wondering whether the AS community could learn anything from the JW 'social skills' training sessions. The NAS won't be interested in making use of any knowledge because they hardly offer anything for people with AS and are not interested in doing so.
JW is all centred on the Book of Revelation / Apocalypse of John. There was controversy over whether this book should have been included in the New Testament or not. Initially the decision was yes, then it changed to no so it was omitted, then it was later included. Some sects of Christianity use a New Testament that does not contain the Book of Revelation. Had the Protestant New Testament not included the Book of Revelation then the JW would probably have never existed. Even Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, seriously questioned the credibility of the Book of Revelation and put it into the appendix of his German translation of the Bible.
This was a funny post. I wondered why Arran asked the? In the first instance?
I'm atypical Asd. Looked into the Bible 9 years with them. And became one. For over a decade.
I recently decided I had enough.
Not because others feel its a cult. I never did.
I was taken to Church as a child left volutarily at 15. Bored with the hypocrisy.
JWs at least teach what is actually in the Bible. With out the add ons of Christmas or Easter neither of which feature in any Bible.
They can't convert you joining is a choice.
There are good people in all walks of life and religions.
But there will always be pretenders in ALL religions.
Saying that they do get abuse just for belonging to this belief system.
You can be hated & ridiculed just for telling people your a JW.
This is not why I left though. Or wont return.
I feel I'm not suited to putting the reputation of an organisation before what I feel is right.
I feel all organisations expect this of individuals.
So in answer to your question I don't think I would fit well in any religious organisation.
But we are all different so what works for some doesn't work for all.
I wouldn't assume all asd people wouldn't be able to conform to a belief system.
I know some do. I wouldn't knock their hussle.
I feel its logical to believe we have a designer after all no human has been able to recreate another planet earth.
I always think accidents can be explained & recreated!
I will never be an atheist in my heart. But I would't disrespect someone for their choice to believe what they want!
We can't all be robots who look and feel the same about everything.
This attitude starts wars.
Starstruck
NAS15840 said:Having ASD and being religious is actually quite rare, there is quite a lot of evidence that shows that having ASD correlates quite strongly with being atheist.
There’s evidence of a “god gene” (or group of interacting genes) which makes people more susceptible to religion (ongoing research may show they aren't present in the majority of those with ASD) and also the fact that those of ASD tend to be more (or even ultra) rational which would push them away from religion. There are exceptions of course and you have to take account of places where it’s not possible to be atheist (Muslim states where apostasy is illegal etc.), but to find someone with ASD at the cult end of the spectrum would be very rare indeed.
I'm not sure that you can justify this. There is probably some truth when it comes to people with ASD of Protestant Christian origin but not other religions.
About six months ago I was called on by two Jehova's Witnesses women who tried to convert me to their religion. I said I was an aetheist and autistic and one of them replied "we are all autistic". At the time I assumed she was trying to ingratiate herself to me by saying what she did. ie make me feel she was empathetic to get into my head.
Not sure either way, why are you interested?
Laddie
I think there could be lots of undiagnosed Asd individuals.
You will find them knowingly and otherwise in any walk of life.
Do you think religion defines a person or would the asd define the person.
Or is the person a human being before all the other stuff is added into the mix?
Starstruck
I personally try not to encounter any Jehovah's Witnesses... I pretend I'm not in...
On a more serious note, I am sure there some ASD people in every religion or sect.
