Gaza

Personally anyone defining human life by man made drawn lines on a map needs to have a serious look in the mirror, shame on you, you are exactly what keeps wars going and innocent people dying. 

Yes, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt have the means and political will to dialogue with the US and with Palestinians in order to come up with a workable plan. They were dialoguing before Trump and helped negotiate the ceasefire. The hostilities between Israel and Palestine didn’t start with the kidnapping and killing of Israelis by Hamas, it has been going on for years, albeit nothing in the scale of the past couple of years. I can’t see how the US could avoid engaging and supporting a solution of some sort. Although they wield much financial power, it would not be in the US’s financial and political interest to go up against its Arab allies. Israel is becoming increasingly concerned about Trump because it depends on irs Arab neighbours for their peace and stability. It is isolated and surrounded by Arab countries who do not support Trumps stance.

ArchaeC said:

the world has to hope and to keep striving for peace. 

From what I see in this conflict there is going to be no solution that both sides are happy with so it is going to take an ouside force of some kind to make them both accept a compromise that does now meet all their wants but does deliver a viable solution.

Their seems no outside force of consequence that Israel will accept - it regularly uses its influence over the US to veto any motion against it so in reality it will be the US that needs to be the power broker here.

Given that Trump fancies himself as the King of Israel then I doubt he can be impartial.

It leaves the situation looking rather one sided unfortunately. Peace through ethnic cleansing is what is currently on the cards.

In reality is there any entity out there who has the influence to change this?

Agreed.  And now I am to slumber.

Yes, but for the sake of the people of the land, and humanity in general, the world has to hope and to keep striving for peace. 

Please do not understand me sir......I think this is a subject that DESPERATELY needs some air.....to be aired...albeit that I'm not sure this is the correct place for such discussions.....albeit that I'm not sure that this place is NOT a correct place to have such discussions either!!

Tbh......I remain simply delighted that NOT A SINGLE link has invaded this thread.......yet.

Unknown said:

I think so.

It just makes it a conversation with strong views on either side and a chance that one side will not accept a solution that does not benefit them.

Does this mean we should ignore what facts we can find that support one side or the other?

I agree that there are no innocent parties at a macro scale, but there are abundant victims. Can these be ignored because it is difficult?

ArchaeC said:

it can be impossible

I think so.

I try not to take sides as I have learned that it is not always conducive to dialogue and peace. Some Israelis and some Palestinians would like to obliterate the other, but some want proper dialogue and resolution. If you have had something like your entire family killed, and you have been maimed because you might be Palestinian or Israeli, it can be impossible, just because of the mental and physical trauma, to feel anything but hatred for those responsible. All I can say is that If I had been born and brought up in Palestine or in Israel, I might feel as any kind of those people. Although I try not to take sides, it is difficult.  It is factual that Palestinians were suffering for years due to restrictions on public services, freedom and movement. Their homes were destroyed in the West Bank, their means of earning a living destroyed through destruction of their centuries old olive trees. The scholars, people on the ground and others who live in Israel/Palestine have not been able to come up with an ethical solution. 

HEY THERE FOLKS.........I just wanted to celebrate the fact that a thread here, in this place, has just managed to achieve 10 posts from actual humans, without a SINGLE "link" being included!!!  This is perhaps rare these days, given the propensity/vogue for automated/"linked" advice here, in recent times!

Celebrate the little wins = it keeps hope alive !!

Admittedly, I do also envisage some 'king k illing fields in this thread soon!  NOT an easy topic to "chat about" in a public forum?!

Godspeed to all.

Iain said:

but finding a neutral voice is difficult.

If I had a shekel, or Palestine coin, for every time I have said this here and more widely in life.....then I would be a rich man.  [Music from Manic Miner is now coursing through my head!!.....damn the ZX Spectrum!]

ArchaeC said:

it is not acceptable to peddle false narratives.

What do you consider a correct narrative in relation to the claim to the Palestinian statehood?

There seem to be two opposing views by each entity but finding a neutral voice is difficult.

Of course there are Palestinian people and a Palestinian state. I think that to say otherwise and to attempt to back it up by false history is exactly the sort of thing that people with a dubious agenda persue.  I lived, worked and studied during archaeological pursuits in Jerusalem a while back. I encountered many Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Christians, Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Israeli Christians. I listened to conversations between Palestinians and Israelis and I read various histories. The Palestinian people have long lived and worked in that part of the Levant for many years and they have a right to determine their own future. I am all for respect for different opinions on this website but it is not acceptable to peddle false narratives.

Hi Billy......nice to see you sir.

I have NOT been studying this topic all my life......but I'm always pleased to be 'prompted' to look at things.....and you just did that for me with your post here.

I have a trite mantra that is not special to me....ie...."follow the money" when trying to understand something.  Accordingly, I googled "Palestin e coin" and got a lot of hits, of various years, ranging from 1927 onwards.

This is not a "challenge to your writing here, nor at you personally".......I'm just interested Billy......why are there coins stamped/cast with the word "Palestin e" if Ara fat invented the concept of people from that place?

I start from a pre-position of "knowing" that this is one of the most intractable and uncomfortable matters of modern history and current affairs.  Beyond that, I'm a bit "otherly" on this topic......but as you know.....I LOVE to learn!

With peace and well wishes to you always,

Number.

Billy87 said:

There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation or indeed a Palestinian nationality. 

It is interesting to look at the history of the area currently called Palestine as it has changed "owners" many, many times in history:

Palestinians (current) since 1516 when the Ottomans conquered it
The Mongol Empire sine the 1250s
The Ayyubid Sultanate since 1187
The Crusaders since 1099
Muslims since 636
Christians via the Roman Empire since the 4th century
The Romans since 63 BCE
The Jews since 2nd century BCE
The Assyrians since the 8th century BCE
The Philistines since the Iron Age
The Canaanites (under the influence of Egypt) since the bronze age

For Israel to claim ownership seems somewhat disingenuous as many other groups were there before them and since so there is no proven right for them to claim it.

I understand part of the justification is that some respected jewish minister was out in the wilderness with his colleagues when he had a vision (not experienced by his colleagues) that rather conveniently told him that all the land before him was to belong to the Jews, I paraphrase but I think this is the essence of it.

As a basis for claiming a right to the land it would clearly not stand up in any court so there is a consistent effort through recent history to bypass the legal system, ignore it or use other tactics to make it theirs.

Please correct me if I am factually wrong in any of this as I am only an amateur scholar of the situation. Please refer to impartial links (such as Wikipedia) as there is a huge amount of bias and misinformation from both sides of the arguement out there.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation or indeed a Palestinian nationality. 

Much of the political rhetoric pretends to be under the umbrella of Christianity, Islam or Judaism Just to add something positive of mainstream views on ethnic cleansing, here is part of the editorial from this week’s “The Tablet” which is an international Catholic magazine based in London: 

The response to President Trump’s straight-faced proposal (“I don’t mean to be cute, I don’t mean to be a wise guy,” he explained) that the US could take over Gaza, decant its population and convert it into a shopping and bathing waterfront development – “the Riviera of the Middle East” – has ranged from Benjamin Netanyahu’s smug smile to a horrified UN secretary general Antonio Guterres warning of the less than cute examples from history of ethnic cleansing. In The Jewish Chronicle today, Jacob Jaffa writes that thousands of Jewish people in the UK who trace their roots to Poland, Russia, Iraq and elsewhere are united by having ancestors who were expelled from their homes after the nation that housed them declared that the land was not theirs. “The 7 October massacres were the latest in a long line of pogroms dating back to the first century, but we should know better than anyone that the answer is not ethnic cleansing.”

A bit more reading on this subject made me see a different angle here and one that seems much more Trump oriented.

Real Estate.

He is saying he wants the US to own Palestine from what I have read. It negates the conflict through the ethnic cleansing of the locals leaving a large area of mediterranean coastal property in dire need of development (given that Israel has bombed it to bits).

What are the chances that the Trump property empire would be given preferential access to buy up some of this at bargain basement prices?

All done through shell companies etc to keep the conflict of interests away from the lawyers reach.

The Trump resort in the Eastern Meditteranean with its own golf course built on the corpses of those killed in the conflict does seem like something he would do.

I don’t think it’s a stupid idea. It’s just a manifestation of his vile thoughts. Trump is intelligent enough and ideas like this are going round in his head all the time. He is opportunistic and every so often he will verbalise his thoughts in order to boost his dreams of owning the world. He intends to achieve this by among other things, getting rid of what he says is the problem (the Palestinian people). He thrives on the attention his comments generate. He enjoys lying and making announcements that often have a false reference to imaginary historical events. The man has no concept of right from wrong and he cares only for himself and pretends to care for his supporters. He enjoys harming people because it boosts his ego. Palestinians have a right to stay in their own country and keep their culture. Buildings should be rebuilt to their specifications and any forceful action to do otherwise would be ethnic cleansing. Moreover, it would be again international law which does not depend on Trump changing or pulling out of any agreement he may have. Some Republicans have already stated that they don’t agree with him and I suspect much of the American voting public will soon realise that he is causing America harm. 

It seems to me that this is because the last time Trump was president he was given the title of King of Israel (a quote from Trump on his Twitter feed).

Since he loves praise it seems likely he will want to use his power to get more praise and this is a way he can get more plus be seen to "solve the Middle East situaiton" finally.

The fact this involves the ethnic clensing of Palestine is a small detail soon lost in the hubris of how good it will all be for Israel and, hence Trump.

He has said so far that this whole thing won't involve American soldiers or money - somebody else will pay for it all. Sound familiar? Mexico Wall anyone?

Given the way the announcement of the idea caught almost his entire cabinet off guard makes me thing it was just him making up the idea and announcing it - something that speaks to his lack of impulse control.

I doubt it will ever get to be more than hubris to cover his many failings with trade sanctions, lawsuits etc.