• Replies 80 replies
  • Subscribers 39 subscribers
  • Views 2654 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
Related
Hints and tips
  • To quote someone's message, first select/highlight the relevant text, and then use the Quote button that appears
  • To "mention" someone, type @ followed by the start of the forum name, and choose from the list; that person will get a notification of being mentioned

Gaza

TheCatWoman

Trump has announced that he thinks all Paletstinians should be moved from Gaza and into neighbouring countries where they can live in nice new modern homes, America will take over Gaza and turn it into a massive resort and it will create lots of jobs and money.

Why should the Palestinians have to give up thier country?

Where would they go? Both Egypt and Jordan have said they can't/won't accept them and why should they, they both have the same pressure with migration the rest of the world has.

Does America intend to fund all these new homes etc and where would they be?

Who would staff all these hotels etc in this new resort?

Where would they live?

Who will profit from this enterprise

Any move to displace the Palestinians would break at least two international treaties, so will Trump be forced to take any notice of the treaties the US has made previously, or does he just intend to ignore them?

Does anyone else think this is a totally stupid idea?

Parents

  • There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation or indeed a Palestinian nationality. 

    From 1948 until 1967 Gaza and the West Bank were ruled by Egypt and Jordan. They did not provide the people who lived their with a state but instead kept them in permanent poverty. Israel only took control of the region after they were attacked by Jordan, Egypt and Syria in 1967.
    In 2005 Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and the West Bank. The citizens of Gaza promptly voted in the terrorist group Hamas as their government in democratic elections the following year. The idea of "occupied territories" is a myth, Israel have withdrawn from this land since 2005.
    When they left Israel spend thousands of dollars laying complicated irrigation systems for the people of Gaza before they left so that the area would never be without clean, running water. Hamas then filmed themselves digging up these systems and using the material to make rockets to fire at Israel. They have kept their people in abject poverty since as a propaganda tool despite being given hundreds of millions of dollars in aid from the Western world and indeed from the Israelis themselves. Even the former head of Hamas stated that if all the aid that has been given to Gaza had been used for the good of the people then Gaza would be as "rich as Dubai". Instead, the money has been used by Hamas to buy weapons, build a network of tunnels and fund terror attacks into Israel, including the genocidal and horrific attacks on civilians on October 7th, which started this current war. 
    There is no Palestinian state because historically there is no such group as the Palestinians. The idea of a national group called the Palestinians was invented by Yasser Arafat as a campaign tool to wage war against Israel. Before that the idea of Palestinian nationality never existed. Indeed, most of the Arab inhabitants of the region though of themselves as Syrian. 
    Jews began moving back to the land in question in the 1800s, legally purchasing large chunks of land from the Arabs living there who were happy to sell it to them because it was arid , uncultivated desert. The Jews began cultivating the land and making it bountiful and fruitful. Ironically this made more Arabs move to the land as it was so prosperous.
    The land of TransJordan was created as an independent state in 1921 for the Arabs in the region. The land that remained encompassed both Jews and Arabs, including , after 1945, many Jews who had survived Hitler's extermination camps, an actual genocide.
    A two state solution for the remaining land was offered in 1946, one Jewish, one Arab. This was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs. If they had accepted, there would have been a "Palestinian" state back then.
    Over the decades, Israel has offered countless peace deals to the Palestinian Authority, Hamas and the PLO. All have been rejected for one simple reason, the leaders of the Palestinian territories are committed to the destruction of Israel and will not accept any peace deal that leaves a Jewish state in existance. The founding charter of Hamas says Hamas will not rest until every Jew on earth is dead. It is impossible for Israel to make peace in such circumstances. 

    Sorry for the long post but I have been studying this topic almost my entire life and really felt the need to post on this

    I wish you peace and wish you well
  • in reply to Billy87
    Billy87 said:
    There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation or indeed a Palestinian nationality. 

    It is interesting to look at the history of the area currently called Palestine as it has changed "owners" many, many times in history:

    Palestinians (current) since 1516 when the Ottomans conquered it
    The Mongol Empire sine the 1250s
    The Ayyubid Sultanate since 1187
    The Crusaders since 1099
    Muslims since 636
    Christians via the Roman Empire since the 4th century
    The Romans since 63 BCE
    The Jews since 2nd century BCE
    The Assyrians since the 8th century BCE
    The Philistines since the Iron Age
    The Canaanites (under the influence of Egypt) since the bronze age

    For Israel to claim ownership seems somewhat disingenuous as many other groups were there before them and since so there is no proven right for them to claim it.

    I understand part of the justification is that some respected jewish minister was out in the wilderness with his colleagues when he had a vision (not experienced by his colleagues) that rather conveniently told him that all the land before him was to belong to the Jews, I paraphrase but I think this is the essence of it.

    As a basis for claiming a right to the land it would clearly not stand up in any court so there is a consistent effort through recent history to bypass the legal system, ignore it or use other tactics to make it theirs.

    Please correct me if I am factually wrong in any of this as I am only an amateur scholar of the situation. Please refer to impartial links (such as Wikipedia) as there is a huge amount of bias and misinformation from both sides of the arguement out there.

  • in reply to Iain

    Of course there are Palestinian people and a Palestinian state. I think that to say otherwise and to attempt to back it up by false history is exactly the sort of thing that people with a dubious agenda persue.  I lived, worked and studied during archaeological pursuits in Jerusalem a while back. I encountered many Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Christians, Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Israeli Christians. I listened to conversations between Palestinians and Israelis and I read various histories. The Palestinian people have long lived and worked in that part of the Levant for many years and they have a right to determine their own future. I am all for respect for different opinions on this website but it is not acceptable to peddle false narratives.

Reply
  • in reply to Iain

    Of course there are Palestinian people and a Palestinian state. I think that to say otherwise and to attempt to back it up by false history is exactly the sort of thing that people with a dubious agenda persue.  I lived, worked and studied during archaeological pursuits in Jerusalem a while back. I encountered many Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Christians, Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Israeli Christians. I listened to conversations between Palestinians and Israelis and I read various histories. The Palestinian people have long lived and worked in that part of the Levant for many years and they have a right to determine their own future. I am all for respect for different opinions on this website but it is not acceptable to peddle false narratives.

Children
  • in reply to Deleted User

    I remember Manic Miner well, fun times Slight smile

  • in reply to Iain

    Yes, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt have the means and political will to dialogue with the US and with Palestinians in order to come up with a workable plan. They were dialoguing before Trump and helped negotiate the ceasefire. The hostilities between Israel and Palestine didn’t start with the kidnapping and killing of Israelis by Hamas, it has been going on for years, albeit nothing in the scale of the past couple of years. I can’t see how the US could avoid engaging and supporting a solution of some sort. Although they wield much financial power, it would not be in the US’s financial and political interest to go up against its Arab allies. Israel is becoming increasingly concerned about Trump because it depends on irs Arab neighbours for their peace and stability. It is isolated and surrounded by Arab countries who do not support Trumps stance.

  • in reply to ArchaeC
    ArchaeC said:
    the world has to hope and to keep striving for peace. 

    From what I see in this conflict there is going to be no solution that both sides are happy with so it is going to take an ouside force of some kind to make them both accept a compromise that does now meet all their wants but does deliver a viable solution.

    Their seems no outside force of consequence that Israel will accept - it regularly uses its influence over the US to veto any motion against it so in reality it will be the US that needs to be the power broker here.

    Given that Trump fancies himself as the King of Israel then I doubt he can be impartial.

    It leaves the situation looking rather one sided unfortunately. Peace through ethnic cleansing is what is currently on the cards.

    In reality is there any entity out there who has the influence to change this?

  • in reply to Deleted User

    Yes, but for the sake of the people of the land, and humanity in general, the world has to hope and to keep striving for peace. 

  • in reply to Iain

    Please do not understand me sir......I think this is a subject that DESPERATELY needs some air.....to be aired...albeit that I'm not sure this is the correct place for such discussions.....albeit that I'm not sure that this place is NOT a correct place to have such discussions either!!

    Tbh......I remain simply delighted that NOT A SINGLE link has invaded this thread.......yet.

  • in reply to Deleted User
    Unknown said:
    I think so.

    It just makes it a conversation with strong views on either side and a chance that one side will not accept a solution that does not benefit them.

    Does this mean we should ignore what facts we can find that support one side or the other?

    I agree that there are no innocent parties at a macro scale, but there are abundant victims. Can these be ignored because it is difficult?

  • in reply to Iain

    I try not to take sides as I have learned that it is not always conducive to dialogue and peace. Some Israelis and some Palestinians would like to obliterate the other, but some want proper dialogue and resolution. If you have had something like your entire family killed, and you have been maimed because you might be Palestinian or Israeli, it can be impossible, just because of the mental and physical trauma, to feel anything but hatred for those responsible. All I can say is that If I had been born and brought up in Palestine or in Israel, I might feel as any kind of those people. Although I try not to take sides, it is difficult.  It is factual that Palestinians were suffering for years due to restrictions on public services, freedom and movement. Their homes were destroyed in the West Bank, their means of earning a living destroyed through destruction of their centuries old olive trees. The scholars, people on the ground and others who live in Israel/Palestine have not been able to come up with an ethical solution. 

  • in reply to Iain
    Iain said:
    but finding a neutral voice is difficult.

    If I had a shekel, or Palestine coin, for every time I have said this here and more widely in life.....then I would be a rich man.  [Music from Manic Miner is now coursing through my head!!.....damn the ZX Spectrum!]

  • in reply to ArchaeC
    ArchaeC said:
    it is not acceptable to peddle false narratives.

    What do you consider a correct narrative in relation to the claim to the Palestinian statehood?

    There seem to be two opposing views by each entity but finding a neutral voice is difficult.