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God does not require repentance. God is love and nothing more than that because love is all there is. Everything else is a construct of man. The Bible and, with it, the Church are constructs of man. They are political tools meant to control and subdue. The Church has always been a political establishment and in no way the work of Jesus or God.
Let us be clear about God.
If God exists according to every religion I can find God is defined as the "originator of all creation".
In the vaguely Christian theology that runs in the back ground with me and many others, he createed all from nothing.
So there can be no argument if you believe in creation that God is ultimately responsible for satan, cancer, nuclear weapons, Jermey Beadle, the recent firestorms etc.
CLEARLY this does not square with the idea of a "loving god" but, please consider this simple fact. If we are indeed living in a creation then we are trying to undertsand the mind and plans of God who can create all.
You have no chance of doing that! I don't care, HOW clever you are, or how big your hat and robes are, it ain't going to happen. It's worse than expecting a cat to learn how to solder!
So please don't expect Desmond or any other Christian to have all the answers as to why god made this the way he did.
But it must be painfully obvious to even the dmmiest of us, that there is a fundamental difference between Good and Evil acts, & Truth and Falsehood. Choose wisely.
One of the big 'what ifs' is what if Oswiu, King of the Northumbrians, had come down on the side of the Celtic Church he had been raised in at the Synod of Whitby. He was largely raised in exile in Ireland.
My area of interest in Medieval History is the Anglo-Saxon conversion period, I read quite extensively on what was going on in both the Catholic and Celtic branches of Christianity, I've also tried to research the British Christianity of the time. We know that there were Christians in Britain during the Roman period as there's some documentary evidence as well as much more archaelogical evidence, mostly from house churches, we're fairly sure, almost certain that Christianity survived the collapse of Rome as an Imperial power and the withdrawl of what ever scraps of legions who were still here and felt loyal to Rome. Romano-British life continued cerainly in the West of Britian and presumably many other areas too, but we don't know what it was, how it was practised etc. St Patrick was a Briton, son of a Chrisian priest before his capture and enslavement by the Irish, who when he escaped them, went back to to convert them, but again, we don't know what type of Chrisianity it was. It almost certainly wasn't the Roman version because if it was and even if he was the first to evangelise in Ireland, which is historically questionable, did the Irish church have so many differences to the Roman one within a couple of centuries? The Irish Church, had a different calculation for the date of Easter, a different tonsure and a different system of hierarchy with abbots rather than bishops being the senior. One of the reasons this is thought to have come about is because bishops were metropolitan, their sees being based around cities and towns, Ireland whilst it certainly had population centres was largely rural and agricultural. Monastic centres rose up and abbots and abbesses were the leaders not just of their foundations, but of the wider church.
I've often wondered if the early British and Irish churches had more in common with what became Greek Orthodoxy, they too date easter differently to the Roman church. It could be that they were influenced by other non Roman Chrisitans such as the Copts or the Gnostics, one of the things noticeable if you really study the carpet pages of the Lindisfarne Gospels is the ecumenicism, the different types of cross used in those pages.
I too have often wondered if a lot of what we call Christianity is really Paulanity? And how did Paul manage to push James aside and become de-facto leader and main influencer of the later church? Paul never met Jesus, whereas James being Jesus's brother must have grown up with him and have known quite well what he actually said, his intentions for the direction of the church founded in his name and most importantly if it was to remain a totally Jewish sect, which James taught, or if it was open to Gentiles as Paul taught?
I'm not really into swapping tales of murders and horrors, numbers of persecuted etc because it's pretty meaningless, especially at a distance of 2000 years, or even 500 years, we can make estimates and educated guesses but we don't actually know.
The Dualist sects (Manichaeans, Paulicians, Bogomils, Albigensians) believed that God created Heaven, the spirit, souls and suchlike, but Satanael created the Earth and physical bodies. Because earthly things were impure, they lived very ascetic lives. Their leading people were 'perfecti', who abstained from marriage and many other things of the material world. They were persecuted by both the Orthodox and Latin churches and bloody Crusades were organised against them, notably in southern France.
Thank you Mark.
Just to put human names to a theological discussion.
It's beyond my comprehension how any member can be so cold in the light of people and animals burning to death let alone all the personal security and goods so many have lost.
Just to put human names to a theological discussion.
The early Christians were a VERY broad "church" consisting of many differing theologies. Paul -v- James was the main battle of theology (from what i can gather) but i do agree that Gnostic theologies (difficult to define) also abounded. It was a fascinating and messy time.
History is generally 'established' by the victors, for good or ill. This is why the Nag Hammadi library and the Dead Sea Scrolls are so fascinating = sets of "history" written/stashed by some of the loosers....for us to find just 80 years ago.
I still find this period of recent human history fascinating...... and like you....I don't feel a need to "pound a personal narrative." It's just interesting. Unfortunately, it is virtually impossible to discuss these topics.....everyone is so utterly polarised these days.
So was the hurricane that decimated Asheville in North Carolina last year an act of God? What did they do wrong? How about the one that killed nearly 3,000 people in Puerto Rico in 2017? Or the Grenfell fire, even? Or the countless natural disasters that have killed millions across the world? Were they all acts of God?
God does not slaughter people according to who you think is deserving of it. God is not wrath. That's just you.
I think Jewish people, Armenians, LGBTQ people and many others might disagree.
Thanks for the feedback.
The fact is that no group has ever been as persecuted as Christians. Catholics, Protestants and Orthodoxy all faced the intransigence of The Enemy.
As I said, I’m very much an atheist…
They believed that the god of the Old Testament (who liked all the murder and cruelty) was in fact a fake god who had trapped our divine souls in a corrupt physical realm.
The real god then sent Jesus
Wait, there are more than one god level deity?
Maybe the Romans were onto something with their pantheon of the gods after all.
Did God purposfully let the Old God run rampant nearly wiping life out on the plantet while he chilled out on his cloud not being omnipitent?
Maybe he only turned up from another solar system in time for Jesus being conceived or maybe he was an offspring of the Old God - so many possibilities to explain this situation.
Sounds like the whole One True God thing is as full of holes as a Swiss cheese.
Infodump from a special interest I phased through about 30 years ago…
The original Christians were what is now described as gnostics. They believed that the god of the Old Testament (who liked all the murder and cruelty) was in fact a fake god (the demiurge) who had trapped our divine souls in a corrupt physical realm.
The real god then sent Jesus to provide us with the knowledge (gnosis) to free our souls from this prison.
It was the Romans who later very much changed the nature of Christianity to what we see now.
I’m very much an atheist but the beliefs of the early Christians seem more sensible and consistent than those they were replaced with.
<infodump ends>
I find it interesting to note that in the bible, god killed untold multitudes of people (including babies and children). Usually though extremely unpleasant methods like drowning, burning and plague.
Satan killed around 10.
I don't know where the morality is.
I usually avoid posting about religion- but I just don't understand the logic of divorce being worse than murder. Market research being worse than murder. stability deprivision being worse than murder.
Desmond, I'm sorry but I don't get it.
One interesting thing that I like to think about is that the Antichrist is reckoned to precede the end times. If we are approaching the end times, I wonder if people look to the newly elected leader of the free world, who wouldn't know how to live by one of Jesus's principles if it hit them in the face, and think... "hang on... wait a minute.. maybe, just maybe I have go this all wrong?!"
Sorry RachelO, I'm not sure I understand your post, are you asking me if I'm not a Christian because of Desmonds post? Because if so, it's not, I've never been a Christian. I've spent a lot of time working in multifaith situations, including a retreat house, I've discussed faith with people of all faiths and none, including an Arch-Bishop.
I attended church today and my rector who is a trained minister who is a Servant of God at church described the fires as being a devastation. There was no glory in their words of this event. I thought I would share that in this post. I always thought them to be epitome of humility as well.
That is what I wrote at first and didn't want and not here. This is for the private like this if you so want me, but as I wrote my thoughts are a bit different of this. I hope you do not right Christanity of because of this.
Sometimes it good to take a step outside and have some fresh air. When I saw Desmond79 posts on faith in the past they seemed written out of love, this one seems different. Stop watching television for a while and speak to a mature person minister etc for a dialogue. That is just my thoughts.
Don't forget the belt made of metal paper clips, it has to round your waist and touch the ground, so that you're earthed.
Good lord, we have unearthed a conspiracy theory!
Quick, put your tin foil hat on!
