Romance

Autistic Not Alien said:

What are your thoughts about romance?

It is largely a societal construct where the rules evolve over time and knowing what the other party to the relationship is wanting is incredibly hard.

I find it much more effective to be polite, kind and thoughtful and have a range of gestures to call on, eg:

When you go to visit them, always take a small gift, even if it is something small like fresh fruit, flowers they may have mentioned they like or their favourite snack. Listening to them and making notes on their favourite author / artist / actor helps here.

Make an effort to remember things that are important to them. Use your mobile phones calendar and note taking function to do this when out of their presence so it seems less mechanical to them - the mystique is an important part for many NTs

Ask how they are and how they feel - but not too often. This one is hard to judge but observing when their behaviour changes can be important.

Offer praise for the little things - how they dressed if they look a bit different to normal, if they have changed their hair or have a new accessory - tell them it looks great, suits them, that they have good taste etc. Keep it simple and sincere. It relies on you paying attention to them.

Overall much of this relies on us stopping being so self centered (a very common autistic trait) and focussing on the partner, paying attention and remembering the small stuff.

Iain said:

Overall much of this relies on us stopping being so self centered (a very common autistic trait)

Iain said:

I use the same base of the posts on this forum and my rational for the conclusion comes from the sheer number of posts which have common elements such as:

I think it would be helpful if you sometimes said that what you believe is just that, a belief from observations.

I note that you have a tendency to make statements as facts (as in my 1st quote) when they are actually just a view of yours (as evidenced in the 2nd quote).

As I don't agree with the rationale upon which you have come to this conclusion and you weren't able to provide evidence as I requested, we shall have to agree to disagree.

Unknown said:

I note that you have a tendency to make statements as facts (as in my 1st quote) when they are actually just a view of yours

Let me put this another way as my observations seem to triggering people to demand proof.

The word "Autism” comes from the Greek autos, meaning “self” while ismos refers to an action or state of being. So “autism” literally means a kind of intense self-absorption.

This comes from Paul Bleuler, the Swiss psychiatrist who coined the term back in 1910.

There is some background to this here:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3757918/

SpikeyMark said:

It smashes the idea of "self-centeredness" because that is from an NT perspective where they don't understand the 'language' and cues that we give off.

It is an interesting article and makes a lot of good points, but it reinforces my point (am I being self centered perhaps? Hmmm), and I quote:

Simply put, the theory of the double empathy problem suggests that when people with very different experiences of the world interact with one another, they will struggle to empathise with each other.

The essence here is that the autist struggles (as does the allist) with empathy. They don't "get" it for some reason which leaves them isolated and as a defence they will often reduce attempts at interaction with allists as has been highlited on this thread and many others recently.

This leaves the autist focussed more on themselves as the pain of focussing on others is uncomfortable. It does not lead to isolation but this pulling away is very common in my experience.

Add to this out autistic behaviours. Not a full list but the ones relevant her (from https://www.cdc.gov/autism/signs-symptoms/index.html )

Repeats words or phrases over and over (called echolalia)

My words/phrases - how I talk.

Plays with toys the same way every time

My toys - how I play

Gets upset by minor changes

This is my routine, how I do things

Has obsessive interests

My hobbies/interests

Must follow certain routines

My way to do things

Has unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel

How I perceive things, how they make me feel

And so on.

The point relevant to the main discussion thread here is that we make so much about our autistic experience about how we interact / behave / feel that it is why we are seen as self centered.

Our lack of empathy for others, as cited in the Double Empathy article, contributes to this self centered image.

At the end of the day the article says we are just misunderstood and seems to put the burdon on the allistics to accommodate us ("The theory has the potential to radically shift how we see autism and therefore autistic people.") and does not counteract the arguement that we often have a strong focus on our self.

Lotus said:

Plus, some synonyms for self centred are egotistical and selfish, which I don't think autistic people are. We constantly worry about what others are thinking and can have very strong emotional empathy.

Absolutely.

I actually think we are probably quite vulnerable to allistic predatory behaviour and a person more concerned with themselves than others wouldn't actually be so - they would be looking after themselves and their own interests much better.

The above is taken from my own personal experience and the autistic people I know in real life as well as reading this forum.

I'm not stating it as a fact, just my own observation.

Great post SpikeyMark 

Iain said:

The word "Autism” comes from the Greek autos, meaning “self” while ismos refers to an action or state of being. So “autism” literally means a kind of intense self-absorption.

This comes from Paul Bleuler, the Swiss psychiatrist who coined the term back in 1910.

If we are going to accept medical definitions coined over a 100 years ago and use them as proof/evidence nowadays, there are many we could include - maybe women are hysterical still?

Autism as it was defined in the early 20th Century isn't the same as it is defined now in the 21st Century.

One should also take into account that 'we' would not have been diagnosed with autism in those days and under the criteria used.

This isn't quite what I was driving at, Iain .

I hope that you will read the following with the mindset that I am not actually trying to have an argument with you, or am trying to prove you wrong or score points. It is useful information to have and may actually help you in your life.

There is a whole other way of looking at this. It is worth you reading up on it.

It smashes the idea of "self-centeredness" because that is from an NT perspective where they don't understand the 'language' and cues that we give off. In much the same way that we don't do as well as a NT person reading NT 'language' and cues.

What you say, seems to be mostly still from this NT only viewpoint.

Dr. Damian Milton's Double Empathy Problem is a great starting point to read about.

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/double-empathy

I summed up this idea back to Dr. Milton and he really liked it (just blowing my own trumpet ):

Traditional View:

• Autistic people have a poor theory of mind

Double Empathy view

• Autistic people have a poor theory of allistic mind
• Allistic people have a poor theory of autistic mind
• Autistic people have a good theory of autistic mind
• Allistic people have a good theory of allistic mind

The first point alone is what the traditional view actually is. The traditional view doesn't take into account the other three points.

Even though autistic people have a poor theory of allistic mind, it is much better than the average allistic's theory of autistic mind.

Hi Iain

I have a bit of a problem with autistic people being seen as "self centred". The term means "pre-occupied with oneself and one's affairs" but I see that in neurotypical people too. Plus, some synonyms for self centred are egotistical and selfish, which I don't think autistic people are. We constantly worry about what others are thinking and can have very strong emotional empathy.

To me, autism means a state of being oneself, as we are individuals who can have different interests to NT people and have trouble fitting into identity groups. To romance an NT it's useful to do things you have suggested, but it's also important to remain your authentic self.

SpikeyMark said:

They are based from a neurotypical viewpoint.

Does that mean autism needs to be cancelled as a diagnosis?

Of course not - it is a constantly evolving thing.

The point I was making was that its very origins were around the fact the scientists observed the self centeredness of a group of people and it led to autism as a diagnosis.

The "modern theories" will be shelved in due course as a better one comes along, but the nature of autists remains the same.

But these views are outdated. They are based from a neurotypical viewpoint.

More modern theories are things like "The Double Empathy" problem which take into account a more balanced perspective.

But these views are outdated. They are based from a neurotypical viewpoint.

More modern theories are things like "The Double Empathy" problem which take into account a more balanced perspective.

SpikeyMark said:

It smashes the idea of "self-centeredness" because that is from an NT perspective where they don't understand the 'language' and cues that we give off.

It is an interesting article and makes a lot of good points, but it reinforces my point (am I being self centered perhaps? Hmmm), and I quote:

Simply put, the theory of the double empathy problem suggests that when people with very different experiences of the world interact with one another, they will struggle to empathise with each other.

The essence here is that the autist struggles (as does the allist) with empathy. They don't "get" it for some reason which leaves them isolated and as a defence they will often reduce attempts at interaction with allists as has been highlited on this thread and many others recently.

This leaves the autist focussed more on themselves as the pain of focussing on others is uncomfortable. It does not lead to isolation but this pulling away is very common in my experience.

Add to this out autistic behaviours. Not a full list but the ones relevant her (from https://www.cdc.gov/autism/signs-symptoms/index.html )

Repeats words or phrases over and over (called echolalia)

My words/phrases - how I talk.

Plays with toys the same way every time

My toys - how I play

Gets upset by minor changes

This is my routine, how I do things

Has obsessive interests

My hobbies/interests

Must follow certain routines

My way to do things

Has unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel

How I perceive things, how they make me feel

And so on.

The point relevant to the main discussion thread here is that we make so much about our autistic experience about how we interact / behave / feel that it is why we are seen as self centered.

Our lack of empathy for others, as cited in the Double Empathy article, contributes to this self centered image.

At the end of the day the article says we are just misunderstood and seems to put the burdon on the allistics to accommodate us ("The theory has the potential to radically shift how we see autism and therefore autistic people.") and does not counteract the arguement that we often have a strong focus on our self.

Lotus said:

Plus, some synonyms for self centred are egotistical and selfish, which I don't think autistic people are. We constantly worry about what others are thinking and can have very strong emotional empathy.

Absolutely.

I actually think we are probably quite vulnerable to allistic predatory behaviour and a person more concerned with themselves than others wouldn't actually be so - they would be looking after themselves and their own interests much better.

The above is taken from my own personal experience and the autistic people I know in real life as well as reading this forum.

I'm not stating it as a fact, just my own observation.

Great post SpikeyMark 

This isn't quite what I was driving at, Iain .

I hope that you will read the following with the mindset that I am not actually trying to have an argument with you, or am trying to prove you wrong or score points. It is useful information to have and may actually help you in your life.

There is a whole other way of looking at this. It is worth you reading up on it.

It smashes the idea of "self-centeredness" because that is from an NT perspective where they don't understand the 'language' and cues that we give off. In much the same way that we don't do as well as a NT person reading NT 'language' and cues.

What you say, seems to be mostly still from this NT only viewpoint.

Dr. Damian Milton's Double Empathy Problem is a great starting point to read about.

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/double-empathy

I summed up this idea back to Dr. Milton and he really liked it (just blowing my own trumpet ):

Traditional View:

• Autistic people have a poor theory of mind

Double Empathy view

• Autistic people have a poor theory of allistic mind
• Allistic people have a poor theory of autistic mind
• Autistic people have a good theory of autistic mind
• Allistic people have a good theory of allistic mind

The first point alone is what the traditional view actually is. The traditional view doesn't take into account the other three points.

Even though autistic people have a poor theory of allistic mind, it is much better than the average allistic's theory of autistic mind.

Hi Iain

I have a bit of a problem with autistic people being seen as "self centred". The term means "pre-occupied with oneself and one's affairs" but I see that in neurotypical people too. Plus, some synonyms for self centred are egotistical and selfish, which I don't think autistic people are. We constantly worry about what others are thinking and can have very strong emotional empathy.

To me, autism means a state of being oneself, as we are individuals who can have different interests to NT people and have trouble fitting into identity groups. To romance an NT it's useful to do things you have suggested, but it's also important to remain your authentic self.

SpikeyMark said:

They are based from a neurotypical viewpoint.

Does that mean autism needs to be cancelled as a diagnosis?

Of course not - it is a constantly evolving thing.

The point I was making was that its very origins were around the fact the scientists observed the self centeredness of a group of people and it led to autism as a diagnosis.

The "modern theories" will be shelved in due course as a better one comes along, but the nature of autists remains the same.