What are your thoughts about romance? I think that romance is like communication - it's a two-way street. Autistic people get blamed for ‘hindering’ or ‘damaging’, but there is such a thing as a double empathy problem.
I've posted a short video about romance on my YouTube channel - or rather, it's my response to someone else's video about romance and autism.
It smashes the idea of "self-centeredness" because that is from an NT perspective where they don't understand the 'language' and cues that we give off.
It is an interesting article and makes a lot of good points, but it reinforces my point (am I being self centered perhaps? Hmmm), and I quote:
Simply put, the theory of the double empathy problem suggests that when people with very different experiences of the world interact with one another, they will struggle to empathise with each other.
The essence here is that the autist struggles (as does the allist) with empathy. They don't "get" it for some reason which leaves them isolated and as a defence they will often reduce attempts at interaction with allists as has been highlited on this thread and many others recently.
This leaves the autist focussed more on themselves as the pain of focussing on others is uncomfortable. It does not lead to isolation but this pulling away is very common in my experience.
Add to this out autistic behaviours. Not a full list but the ones relevant her (from https://www.cdc.gov/autism/signs-symptoms/index.html )
Repeats words or phrases over and over (called echolalia)
My words/phrases - how I talk.
Plays with toys the same way every time
My toys - how I play
Gets upset by minor changes
This is my routine, how I do things
Has obsessive interests
My hobbies/interests
Must follow certain routines
My way to do things
Has unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel
How I perceive things, how they make me feel
And so on.
The point relevant to the main discussion thread here is that we make so much about our autistic experience about how we interact / behave / feel that it is why we are seen as self centered.
Our lack of empathy for others, as cited in the Double Empathy article, contributes to this self centered image.
At the end of the day the article says we are just misunderstood and seems to put the burdon on the allistics to accommodate us ("The theory has the potential to radically shift how we see autism and therefore autistic people.") and does not counteract the arguement that we often have a strong focus on our self.
Plus, some synonyms for self centred are egotistical and selfish, which I don't think autistic people are. We constantly worry about what others are thinking and can have very strong emotional empathy.
Absolutely.
I actually think we are probably quite vulnerable to allistic predatory behaviour and a person more concerned with themselves than others wouldn't actually be so - they would be looking after themselves and their own interests much better.
The above is taken from my own personal experience and the autistic people I know in real life as well as reading this forum.
I'm not stating it as a fact, just my own observation.
Great post SpikeyMark
The word "Autism” comes from the Greek autos, meaning “self” while ismos refers to an action or state of being. So “autism” literally means a kind of intense self-absorption.
This comes from Paul Bleuler, the Swiss psychiatrist who coined the term back in 1910.
If we are going to accept medical definitions coined over a 100 years ago and use them as proof/evidence nowadays, there are many we could include - maybe women are hysterical still?
Autism as it was defined in the early 20th Century isn't the same as it is defined now in the 21st Century.
One should also take into account that 'we' would not have been diagnosed with autism in those days and under the criteria used.
This isn't quite what I was driving at, Iain .
I hope that you will read the following with the mindset that I am not actually trying to have an argument with you, or am trying to prove you wrong or score points. It is useful information to have and may actually help you in your life.
There is a whole other way of looking at this. It is worth you reading up on it.
It smashes the idea of "self-centeredness" because that is from an NT perspective where they don't understand the 'language' and cues that we give off. In much the same way that we don't do as well as a NT person reading NT 'language' and cues.
What you say, seems to be mostly still from this NT only viewpoint.
Dr. Damian Milton's Double Empathy Problem is a great starting point to read about.
https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/double-empathy
I summed up this idea back to Dr. Milton and he really liked it (just blowing my own trumpet 
):
Traditional View:
Double Empathy view
The first point alone is what the traditional view actually is. The traditional view doesn't take into account the other three points.
Even though autistic people have a poor theory of allistic mind, it is much better than the average allistic's theory of autistic mind.
Hi Iain
I have a bit of a problem with autistic people being seen as "self centred". The term means "pre-occupied with oneself and one's affairs" but I see that in neurotypical people too. Plus, some synonyms for self centred are egotistical and selfish, which I don't think autistic people are. We constantly worry about what others are thinking and can have very strong emotional empathy.
To me, autism means a state of being oneself, as we are individuals who can have different interests to NT people and have trouble fitting into identity groups. To romance an NT it's useful to do things you have suggested, but it's also important to remain your authentic self.
They are based from a neurotypical viewpoint.
Does that mean autism needs to be cancelled as a diagnosis?
Of course not - it is a constantly evolving thing.
The point I was making was that its very origins were around the fact the scientists observed the self centeredness of a group of people and it led to autism as a diagnosis.
The "modern theories" will be shelved in due course as a better one comes along, but the nature of autists remains the same.
My thought is that as autists, we have strengths we can offer in romance, and weaknesses we have to make up for. The key weakness is that intimacy doesn't tend to come naturally to us. I don't just mean bedroom stuff. We have to put in a more conscious effort to make sure our partner feels loved and cared for.
But our strength is that when we care about someone, we can channel that classic obsessive behaviour into that person and find ourselves very comfortable with making fulfilling that person's needs a conscious part of our daily existence. At least, that's how I found it in my last romantic experience.
I guess it depends on the book Iain, but when I made that comment about it depedning on your culture, I was thinking of a dating website from some years ago, that was very successful in America, but when it was launched here was an almost total flop, because the questions it asked and the ranking the user gave them were totally different here to the USA, they had to recalibrate their algorhythms and change some of their questions for the UK. If I'd have believed my original thingy from the site I would of been undateable, I spoke to a few other people who'd tried the site and they said the same things.
I don't think I push help away, but being an intelligent and resourseful person I do as much for myself as I can think of, I will research thing and try things out, I tend only to ask for help when I've reached the end of my resourses, unfortuantely the end of my resourses are often ahead of those who try to help, like the pain clinic saying that I could teach them stuff, they couldn't help me, but they admired my resoursefulness. It's really frustrating for me and for those I ask to help, it sounds as though I'm playing the "yes but" game, but I really have tried the things they're suggesting. Then there's the people who don't listen, like physiotherapists, who tell me I've got brilliant strength and flexibility and act like I'm wasting thier time when actually I've gone to see them because of hyperflexibility.
But these views are outdated. They are based from a neurotypical viewpoint.
More modern theories are things like "The Double Empathy" problem which take into account a more balanced perspective.
I note that you have a tendency to make statements as facts (as in my 1st quote) when they are actually just a view of yours
Let me put this another way as my observations seem to triggering people to demand proof.
The word "Autism” comes from the Greek autos, meaning “self” while ismos refers to an action or state of being. So “autism” literally means a kind of intense self-absorption.
This comes from Paul Bleuler, the Swiss psychiatrist who coined the term back in 1910.
There is some background to this here:
I don't want to gang up here, but the following are purely observations about experiments and proof and not about the original topic. It just bothers me when something is presented as scientific when it is not.
The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
(Latin: onus probandi, shortened from Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat – the burden of proof lies with the one who speaks, not the one who denies)
I have not seen anything that warrants the title of "empirical evidence". It's more in line with anecdotes with a sprinkling of confirmation bias. Empirical evidence would be more along the lines of
| User | Number of posts | "I" / "Me" count |
| Billy-Bob | 173 | 243 |
| Kelly-Marie | 134 | 127 |
THEN, there would also have to be a "control group" for comparison, which in this case could be a neurotypical forum. Otherwise the data is meaningless.
It's important that standards are maintained in science.
I think it would be helpful if you sometimes said that what you believe is just that, a belief from observations.
The term for this is empirical evidence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence
evidence obtained through sense experience or experimental procedure
I was observing the comments made by others and building my comments based on this.
If I had to add a caveat for everything I ever said it would be unreasonable so I leave it to the intelligence of readers to discern for themselves how much faith to put on some random poster on an internet forum.
you weren't able to provide evidence as I requested
And as you question my viewpoint as lacking in evidence, where is the evidence to support your statement?
I'm afraid I shall take my own advice and put as much faith in your statement as you suggest mine should have.
Also why should we not be afraid?
My view on this is that fear creates a prison and leaves you trapped inside.
If you learn to understand that fear, find ways to come to terms with it and find a way to deal with it then you will forever be in its icy clutches.
I have a habit of facing some of these fears head on - face them down and see what is the worst they can really do to me so I can steal their power and live free of them.
It is not something I would suggest others do on the whole but I find it tremendously effective.
If you choose to accept your prison then that is also a valid choice.
If the social rules you've read about in a book are not the ones demonstrated by those around you, then it will cause confusion, how could it not?
If you are reading about social rules then you can almost guarantee that there will be a disclaimer early in the book pointing out that society changes from place to place (rural Wales is way different to Chelsea for example) and you need to apply some common sense in working out if the rules apply in those situations.
The basic rules are pretty universal in Western cultures for exampe so most will apply.
I've had lots of things explained to me in black and white and they're still as clear as mud to me,
If you don't understand the rules yourself then it seems a bit odd to be challenging my suggestion that others who can understand them may benefit from them.
You say youself that you often just need things explained differently sometimes. The issue I have is in the past where I have tried to explain things then you had a go at me for mansplaining or trying to help when you didn't want it.
Could it be you are pushing away those who are trying to help, thus making it harder to receive such help? A sincere question.
Someone else mentioned politics.
Iain, you and I think very differently about many things, I have to agree with you that the example I gave is autistic thinking, but not all of us see things in straight black and white the way you seem to. Social rules rarely make sense when looked at objectively, why do we shut the door when we go to the toilet? We all know what we go there to do, but we pretend to be blind to it, most of the time, lol. I think if you're just following rules without understanding them you come across as inauthentic and people notice that and it makes them wary, they wonder what you're hiding? Also social rules vary from place to place and with class and other subtlties of how we pigeon hole ourselves. I've had lots of things explained to me in black and white and they're still as clear as mud to me, I don't understand somethings it dosen't matter how many different ways or times they're explained I just don't get it, other times I just need it explained differerently.
Also why should we not be afraid? If we've been knocked back many times, often cruelly, then what we've learnt is that these situations are in some way dangerous, they cause hurt, people avoid things that hurt. If the social rules you've read about in a book are not the ones demonstrated by those around you, then it will cause confusion, how could it not?
In terms of romance, it's always been something thats given me the ick, right sinse I was a small child.
Overall much of this relies on us stopping being so self centered (a very common autistic trait)
I use the same base of the posts on this forum and my rational for the conclusion comes from the sheer number of posts which have common elements such as:
I think it would be helpful if you sometimes said that what you believe is just that, a belief from observations.
I note that you have a tendency to make statements as facts (as in my 1st quote) when they are actually just a view of yours (as evidenced in the 2nd quote).
As I don't agree with the rationale upon which you have come to this conclusion and you weren't able to provide evidence as I requested, we shall have to agree to disagree.
To me, romance is a way of putting things that generates warm feelings in another person. For example, I recently told Debbie about meeting my partner, how he introduced me to Bowie and we went to his concert, and I said " We were two star struck lovers who saw our hero perform in 1978" which she though was a romantic memory.
it is possible to be socially liberal and have strong morals they just might not be the traditional ones so favoured by the religious and the political right.
Where did the political right bit come from?
The left has just as many strong moral views as the right, just expressed in subtly different ways.
To a real socialist, the excesses of the capitalist fat cats are probably just as morally wrong as the capitalist fat cats think of some worker not knowing their place and daring to strike for better conditions.
It is all perspective, but the mechanism of the moral compass remains whether your "right" is North or South or anywhere in between.
If someone reads about social rules and dosen't recognise them in the people around them that they may well feel reluctant to try them and risk being more wrong.
so in this situation the autist is thinking "I'm confused, I don't see what has just been explained to me in black and white and I'm afraid to try more".
That is pretty self centric - thanks for illustrating the point
I've lived my life focussed on others to the degree that I think it's made me physically and mentally unwell
I'm sorry this has been your experience.
It is not that common in my experience of other autists as most avoid other people where they can and where they lack the social skills, have little interaction with the ones they cannot avoid.
I've also been controlled and lost a lot of life opportunities through empathy and being a people pleaser.
This is a story I have heard many times here but have you looked into what has driven you to let others have this power over you and your desire to please them?
A good therapist should be able to help you unpack these and get to the root issues to give you the chance to regain your power and advocate for yourself in the way you want.
