Anew government

your words are true I fear though that in their DNA Labour raise taxes and bankrupt the Country we need a low tax small state economy then you will find everything is high class over taxing stops growth and the state are useless at spending money efficiently.

Although I have issues with Reform on what they say about immigration and I would never vote for them their policy of earn 20k before you pay any tax and an insurance based system for the NHS where the less well of do not pay is a top idea equally P.R. for elections is spot on

I disagree that Labour will always raise taxes and bankrupt the country, what did for Gordon Brown and the state of economy was the financial crisis that started in America and spread around the world. I remember other world leaders coming to Brown for advice on how to fix things.

Obviously covid and the war in Ukraine were things beyond anyones control and have left us in a financial mess, we will need to pay tax in order to pay back the money used to for furlough and to cushion energy prices.

i don't want a small state and low tax, I want a state that looks after its people, for to long we've been led to believe we can have champagne services on a beer budget and the state of things now is the result.

I would hate to see Reform becoming a bigger force in politics, they're racist, homophobic and misogynistic. They would really like to do away with the NHS altogether and would probably do away with all sort of public services. How do you think it would effect people like us, who use public services probably more than others?

Corbyn isn't in the labour party and I doubt if they'd let him back in anyway, let alone be leader/PM, he had his chance and lost it. No doubt Starmer will facce challenges with his back benchers, it's how he deals with those challenges that will make or break his leadership, but as he's only been in the job 24 hours I think it's a bit premature to be writing him off already.

Like many other countries around the world we have an aging population, we need a level of immigration to fill the jobs we have, where would the care sector be without migrants, or the NHS? We also need to train and retrain our own people and not allow companies to just bring in more people to fill roles at lower wages. All that does is suppress wage growth and increase the tax avoiding global corporate entities avenues for exploitation. Japan has an aging population, a stagnant economy, low migration and elderly people dying and not being found for days or weeks, is that what we want for ourselves?

I disagree that Labour will always raise taxes and bankrupt the country, what did for Gordon Brown and the state of economy was the financial crisis that started in America and spread around the world. I remember other world leaders coming to Brown for advice on how to fix things.

Obviously covid and the war in Ukraine were things beyond anyones control and have left us in a financial mess, we will need to pay tax in order to pay back the money used to for furlough and to cushion energy prices.

i don't want a small state and low tax, I want a state that looks after its people, for to long we've been led to believe we can have champagne services on a beer budget and the state of things now is the result.

I would hate to see Reform becoming a bigger force in politics, they're racist, homophobic and misogynistic. They would really like to do away with the NHS altogether and would probably do away with all sort of public services. How do you think it would effect people like us, who use public services probably more than others?

Corbyn isn't in the labour party and I doubt if they'd let him back in anyway, let alone be leader/PM, he had his chance and lost it. No doubt Starmer will facce challenges with his back benchers, it's how he deals with those challenges that will make or break his leadership, but as he's only been in the job 24 hours I think it's a bit premature to be writing him off already.

Like many other countries around the world we have an aging population, we need a level of immigration to fill the jobs we have, where would the care sector be without migrants, or the NHS? We also need to train and retrain our own people and not allow companies to just bring in more people to fill roles at lower wages. All that does is suppress wage growth and increase the tax avoiding global corporate entities avenues for exploitation. Japan has an aging population, a stagnant economy, low migration and elderly people dying and not being found for days or weeks, is that what we want for ourselves?

I am afraid all I will say is I take the view I want to maximise the tax take.This did one by having a sensible level of tax that encourages people to want to earn money and invest.if you over tax and go after the rich it does not work.I had a lot of time for Blair and mandelson who said they were comfortable people getting filthy rich.I liked Brown on the bank rescue and I like him as a person however he was responsible for complicating welfare and stealth taxes  and giving away Gold.

New Labour fine and the jury for me is out on Starmer but if he starts discouraging non does and just taxing the rich ti look match it is counterproductive.So that is why I am in favour or  small state and lower taxes it leads to everyone being better off

It  wouldn't have happened with the Tories as they opposed it.

That is pretty much the oppositions partys expectaton - to oppose the government as they have a plan that is so much better.

I would be willing to bet that if this proposal came in during the Thatcher years that Labour would have opposed it as being "too weak", "badly designed" or similar just so they could propose it on their next term and get the credit.

That is the nature of politics - posturing, opposing and saying they have a much better way.

If the Conservatives were so opposed to it, why did they not cancel it when they took power with a stonking majority in 2010?

I'm not defending either party, just poining our how Labour are no better which seems to be your stand on this.

Iain said:

The timing was coincidental for Labour being power.

It  wouldn't have happened with the Tories as they opposed it.

How can the word INTRODUCED be irrelevant?

I understood this to come from the Low Pay Commission (ie civil service rather than government) and was recommended to the government rather than it being a creation of the Labour party.

Its origins go back to the Card and Krueger’s studies on US minimum wages years before and were becoming more of a global standard than something thought up by Labour.

The timing was coincidental for Labour being power.

Iain said:

And the minimum wage has been raised time and again since then, so this is irrelevant.

How can the word INTRODUCED be irrelevant?

Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

And the minimum wage has been raised time and again since then, so this is irrelevant.

Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

And the conservatives took power back to the UK through Brexit. Both these have been handled terribly by the parties controlling the countries afterward so it is hardly worth flag waving over.

The conservatives also gave Scotland an independence vote.

NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

Was this down the government directing them or was this on their own "join the 21st century" to-do list, the same as most other companies with and online presence?

...and so on (I'm limited to how many I can quote.

The point is, I don't think Labour can fly their flag claiming these were all their own doing only - the conservatives have done similar good things and bad things too.

I'm not hating on Labour, just on all politicians and the bull droppings they would have us believe,

Iain said:

A hell of a lot of what Debbie lists as the achievements are very hard to quantify as the statistics created by the civil service are lacking in context and are, well open to interpritation. As the old saying goes, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

1. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
2. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
3. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
4. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
5. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
6. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
7. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
8. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
9. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
10. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
11. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
12. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
13. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
14. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
15. Banned fox hunting.
16. Free TV licences for over-75s.
17. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
18. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
19. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
20. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
21. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
22. Free eye test for over 60s.
23. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
24. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
25. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

TheCatWoman said:

what did for Gordon Brown and the state of economy was the financial crisis that started in America and spread around the world

The lack of bank and lending organisation regulation was ultimately behind this - lack of oversight from the government made this a whole lot worse.

Then there was his selling off of half the countries gold reserves at the lowest price in 20 years - very shady.

And backing Tony Blairs lies about the war against Iraq leading to massive costs and loads of lost lives.

A hell of a lot of what Debbie lists as the achievements are very hard to quantify as the statistics created by the civil service are lacking in context and are, well open to interpritation. As the old saying goes, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

There is no doubt that Labout presided over a very successful period in our countries history, but they also presided over an unprecedented crash in 2008.

The Conservatives also presided over a preriod or prosperity early in their terms but it was destroyed by a bunch of poor leaders and a financial ciris (covid), much like when Labour changed to Gordon Brown.

My conclusion is that the parties are not inherently good or bad, but mostly preside over a period of good financial climate with a capable leader followed by less competent leaders and hard times.

The pattern seems to repeat

It will be interesting how well Keir does when the financial outlook remains so difficult thanks to global conditions, immigration and Russia all pressing on the economy.