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Women and gay men

Theendingofhismiddleliving

Hello,

I hope I am not too awkward. I could discuss things in my past, but that would be very complicated. I am more inclined to talk about something very recent. 

People in other forums have found me offensive, and it is hard for me to understand why. This terrifies me, since I am afraid of doing the wrong thing. If people start to attack me, I will disappear. 

I have been taking ketamine infusions in a psychiatric clinic on a regular basis. During this experience, things "come up," which seems to mean that normally repressed material becomes conscious. In a few recent infusions, I've noticed that I seem to be bothered by some scorn and really intense hatred that I have received from women in my life. (My mother being a dramatic exception.) Men hate me too, but women's hatred seems to be especially emotional and out of control. One thing that is especially jarring about this is that I am a gay man, and stereotypically I should get along with women really well. It is disturbing, and actually rather frightening, how women actually treat me. I haven't got much feedback as to why I am so offensive, but some people -- men actually -- have observed that I am "too nerdy" or "too nervous." 

Given that I'm gay, you might wonder why I would care if women hate me or not. But it is disconcerting to be attacked by anyone, and my ketamine experiences seem to indicate that this is a genuine issue for me. So I asked my psychotherapist why this should be the case. He informed me that women hate gay men, because they see them as not being real men. This made no sense to me, since women are actually supposed to get along with gay men really well. I even showed my therapist an article about how scientists find this fact so striking that they are trying to study it: https://theconversation.com/the-science-behind-why-so-many-women-want-to-befriend-gay-men-51965

After he read this, denied that he had ever said that women hated gay men. To the best of my recollection, he then said the following:

"I did not say that women hate gay men. I said that hysterical women hate gay men. Neurosis takes two forms: hysteria and obsessiveness. Most neurotic women are hysterical. Most neurotic men are obsessive. The hysterical woman feels that she needs a phallus. A phallus is not a penis. The phallus has absolutely nothing to do with the penis. Mistaking the phallus for the penis is a terrible mistake, it is completely wrong. The phallus is Nietzsche's will to power. The phallus is completion. Hysterical women desperately need a phallus. They hate gay men, because they see them as dickless men."

I feel bad about this "explanation." I don't feel that it answers my original question as to why I make women so angry. The real question is why gay men typically have experiences with women that are completely opposite to mine. I don't feel that my therapist has explained this. I can tell myself that hysterical women hate me, but then I still don't understand why so many women hate me because I don't understand why I keep crossing paths with hysterical women. Furthermore, how do hysterical women even know that I am gay? I don't broadcast it. 

Before hearing my therapist's "explanation," I was a bit more inclined to think that women are sensitive to certain social cues that men are less sensitive to. I was also thinking that I very bad with those cues, thus sending women the wrong signal. But I can't be more specific than that, because I really don't understand it. 

  • in reply to Theendingofhismiddleliving
    Theendingofhismiddleliving said:
    I am talking about women who are literally yelling and falsely accusing me of crimes

    When these situations happen, try to make a mental note of what you were doing in the run up to it and write it all down afterwards. Capture the information like:

    1- was I staring at them

    2 - what did I say to them

    3 - what interaction did I have with them (eg getting close to them, touching their hair etc).

    I have observed that women in Brazil are permanently on guard as they regularly get harassed by men and competed against by other women so I have seen plenty of the explosive responses you talk about.

    This is typically when they feel threatened and you have crossed some boundary for them so I think you would be best served to understand what it is that you are doing that is crossing the boundary.

    Staring does seem a likely candidate for an autist so take care with this and don't stare even when they are wearing very provocative outfits.

  • in reply to Martin

    My dear, I am talking about women who are literally yelling and falsely accusing me of crimes. I am doing well just to run away or hide. 

  • When you get a negative reaction from a woman have you ever just said to them that you are gay and that you really do not mean to threaten or upset them? You could then ask them what it is about about yourself that they object to.

    As autism is amongst other things a perceived deficit in communication it is probably that your problem is based on non-verbal communication. You are probably giving out facial expressions and/or body language that women are finding threatening, makes them uncomfortable or uneasy. The types of facial expression and body language that neurotypicals find acceptable and appropriate can be researched and learned intellectually, where an autistic person does not have access to them subconsciously. I have done it myself.

  • in reply to Theendingofhismiddleliving

    yeah thats the thing. any social weirdness or differentness they automatically will think your a psychopath. 

    very judgemental.... but thats their society, how they are... likely a defence mechanism though for weaker people. a natural avoiding of any potential danger. and not being the social norm is a potential danger.

    its also like when your out walking, your walking behind someone and you feel uncomfortable thinking that the person infront is probably suspicious of you walking behind them. and the person infront probably is suspicious of you and nervous and would likely either speed up or slow down to let you pass. or cross the road. its a thing to avoid possible dangers. 

  • in reply to Caelus

    Sometimes when women look at me, they react like they're seeing a serial killer. Sometimes this is scary as hell! 

  • in reply to Theendingofhismiddleliving

    i think women in general can sniff out "weirdness" and get auto put off by it... women are very much the creators of the social society. if you dont fit the social society like autistics dont, then women automatically are repelled by you. they are beings of popularity, they are put off by the unpopular and want nothing to do with them for fear of becoming unpopular themselves.

  • in reply to GuybrushThreepwood

    I'm not Brazilian. I just live here. I would be afraid to try to answer your questions, because I don't feel like an authority. 

  • I agree with Battybats, your last paragraph sounds like it is probably the truth and not your therapist’s absolutely horrible views about women. I don’t think NT women and stereotypically gay men suddenly get randomly drawn together though, they would meet naturally and get chatting about things they tend to have in common like enjoying fashion and make up and awful reality TV shows etc. I notice someone else has mentioned you live in Brazil, are women generally more on their guard against men because they are at high risk of being attacked by those who share the same views as your therapist? Are your therapist’s views common amongst Brazilian men? If so seemingly small issues with communication or body language might make women more wary

  • Theendingofhismiddleliving said:
    Before hearing my therapist's "explanation," I was a bit more inclined to think that women are sensitive to certain social cues that men are less sensitive to. I was also thinking that I very bad with those cues, thus sending women the wrong signal. But I can't be more specific than that, because I really don't understand it.

    I actually think that you're right about this and your therapist is wrong. Neurotypical women may well be picking up on differences in the way you communicate and interpreting that in a way that makes them lash out. I can understand why, to some extent, because they don't know you're gay and autistic and won't realise that the different way you interact with others is harmless... but if and when they do know, it's also on them to give you the benefit of the doubt.

    I know that as an autistic and LGBTQ+ woman I find that I generally get on well with men who are also both of those things, but struggle with a lot of NT women even though we supposedly have more in common. Unfortunately NT people often have very set ideas of 'normal' behaviour and will punish those who don't fit those norms. Perhaps that's what's really going on for you too.

    Your therapist sounds absolutely horrendous though, to be honest. All this stuff about hysteria and phalluses is very weird and outdated. I don't blame you for feeling bad about it- it IS bad.

  • in reply to Caelus

    That raises a question. Do autistic gay men have difficulties with women that neurotypical gay men do not have? I really don't know. Does anyone ever talk about this? 

  • or its just the autistic effect of everyone naturally just gravitating away from you for reasons neither of us can ever explain?