Wanting the age for being an adult to be lowered from age 18 in all countries

I don't think there is anything wrong with working as soon as u can,and maybe it makes people mature. Think too much is put on people to go to university. And like colleges,universities from what i've seen make them close minded,particularly politically(all think the same way judged on no life experience!). Maybe doing dead end jobs to pay bills teaches responsibility,where getting learing debts causes all the problems of 'anxieties' they all seem to have. Or staying in a hostel cos ur homeless is a good way to see how some people have it. 

They also say they are so open minded,yet never accept any other point of view is one thing!

Agree with everything but last sentence,21 maybe! Lol

The voting age in Scotland for council and Scottish Parliamentry elections is 16,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33173488

I agree that everyone should have their choice of life - but the current system is going to see generations of lonely singles all missing out on what was in front of them due to unrealistic expectations and crazy entitlement.

Affairs are still approved of in some countries, like Eastern European countries... but the problem is, that it was only approved of for a man to have a mistress.

People change a lot when they grow older. Personally I think that real adulthood begins at 30, that's when people really begin to know themselves and what they want.

It's all fair and good if people want to marry young and have kids - but what if they don't want to? it's unfair to force somebody to do something that they don't want to do.

I've never been a fan of gender stereotypes, or people "having" to do something just because of their gender. If people want to adhere to traditional gender roles, that's fine - but equally, if they don't, that's also fine.

It's actually easier to get married young and grow up together - many more years of shared experiences-  trying to match up later means you're much more set in your ways.

This is going to wound odd - but affairs used to be approved of - as long as the couple's gene pool wasn't polluted - no random offspring outside of the marriage.

I think you're looking at the whole dependency-thing backwards.    By getting married, the man takes responsibility to earn the money to pay for his family -  of maybe many kids - and her responsibility was to raise the kids and look after the house - which became easier and easier during the 20th century - but the man's responsibility never changed - just earn the money.

In the past, people were expected to get married at a very young age, and marriages are often arranged. No one deserves to be stuck in a loveless arranged marriage. Women didn't have any choices in life other than getting married young and having children, and be financially dependent on their husbands. 

Sometimes, marriages just don't work out - no one should stay in an unhappy marriage, especially an abusive one.

Marriage can be risky for women too, their husband can decide to have an affair and leave them for a younger woman. Or get cold feet and run away from responsibility.

I have never wanted children, and my attitude towards marriage has always been "if it happens, great - if not, also great" as I'm quite happy being single. This doesn't make me selfish or "me me me", it's a personal choice. Plus, not everyone is suited to being a parent.

Of course I understand that if you're in a long-term relationship or marriage, there will be rough patches, times when it's boring, arguments, fights etc. and that both partners have to work at it to keep the love alive. But I do also think that it's better to wait for the right person than marry someone at 21 out of "duty", especially considering that at that age, most people don't know themselves yet. I know people who married later in life, and who have remained very much in love after many years.

The biggest problem is the whole me, me, me lifestyle.  

Not long ago, marriage was all about duty - love is a Disney fantasy - it used to be a man of good standing married a woman of good breeding for the purpose of pushing the line forward - it was about duty and honour and having a bunch of children to carry on the family farm or business or name.

Today's successful marriages are all about duty - doing the best for each other to fulfil each other's dreams.

Unfortunately, marriage has become extremely risky for men - they are literally betting their life on the good will of a woman.     If she decides that she's bored, he loses everything and becomes homeless.   (over 80% of divorces are initiated by women).

There's going to be a generation of 'never marrieds' where the young girls all demand millionaires - and so will be disappointed until too late -  and the boys will never match up so will sit on the shelf.

Would you want to be the bloke she eventually 'settled' for?

(not bitter or sexist - do some research - it's going to be a disaster in a few years -  in some places, marriage is down to just 6%)

I'm not talking sex workers that's a completely different angle - I'm talking everyone on Instagram and facebook

You're looking at this from an adult point of view - not a 12 year old's.      It is amazingly blatant in that girls get used to a massive amount of positive attention - even the 'average' ones get so much attention and compliments that they imagine themselves to be goddesses.

The boys just go around in circles - discarded trash.   Their only way to get any attention is sending presents to the girls - amazon vouchers etc.

It's there in plain sight if you care to look - it's completely skewing the ability of people to form meaningful relationships in real life.

BTW - I'm not biased or bitter - I'm just explaining how things are-  and most people on here are woefully unaware of what their children are doing.on the internet.

My 22 year old is very internet savvy - the has shown me all the things that kids are doing - it's not pretty.

Yeah, we do seem to have different definitions of man-child! When I say man-child, I mean someone deeply emotionally immature, who takes no responsibility for themselves. I have no issue with people being silly and bursting into song, since I do that sometimes. 

I guess I am a "woman-child" in some people's eyes, by your definition. I'm self-sufficient, but I very much live in my own world. I do the adulting that needs to be done (rent, bills, food, self-care, life admin etc) but do what makes me happy the rest of the time. But yes, I agree, there are women who are incredibly immature also, I've met plenty of those.

I don't get the whole "playing hard to get" thing, it's just weird. I don't think anyone should relentlessly pursue or badger anyone. It annoys me when people objectify other people, or project their fantasies onto them - if I meet someone I find attractive, my first instinct is, well, to get to know them as a person/friend (I'm kinda demisexual so for me, sexual attraction happens only once a friendship is established - obviously I have to find them physically attractive to a degree, but for me it's 50% looks, 50% cerebral).

violetdr3amer said:

I don't see why I should completely deplete myself dating a man-child, when I get absolutely nothing in return.

You and I seem to have a different definition of man child. When I say man child I'm talking about someone willing to burst in song and dance in public because they are in a good mood. Someone who has no interest in adulting beyond the bare minimum they need to survive.

violetdr3amer said:

Women are expected to look after man-children and are deemed selfish and cruel if we don't, but as a man, would you put up with a "woman-child"?

I mean kinda yeah? By my definition not yours. Manic pixy girl is not a bad dating option. Some of the hottest girls I ever knew were capable of fantastically immature behaviour. Meanness isn't attractive but a lack of seriousness, appropriateness and propriety can be.

violetdr3amer said:

gaslighting, deflecting blame

I mean arguing over who's in the wrong and doubting your other halfs motives just seems like normal relationship stuff to me. Couples argue. It only becomes intractable if you divorce the argument from reason and logic. When one side insists they are right because of the depth and sincerity of their feelings you're at an impasse. But if you really want to make a relationship work you'll take the time to rationally deconstruct a disagreement and find a compromise that works for both sides.

violetdr3amer said:

I don't understand why men relentlessly pursue women until they wear them down, even if the woman is not interested.

Because if they don't chase they get out competed by the men who do chase. As a dating strategy not chasing women only works if the men agree to do it together. And since there are women who do pretend to have less interest than they actually do, because it gives them more bargaining power at the start of a relationship, or buys them more time to assess a potential partner, because of that there will always be a degree of doubt in a mans mind unless a woman is direct in her rejection of him.

They didn't treat me right, that's the problem. There was a lot of gaslighting, deflecting blame, tantrums, silent treatment, taking advantage of me, financially rinsing me and expecting me to do *everything* for them to the point of exhaustion, which is not really fair. I never dated an autistic guy to my knowledge, only borderlines. I don't see why I should completely deplete myself dating a man-child, when I get absolutely nothing in return. When I burned myself out looking after them and I needed support, they would be like "oh this is too much for me!" 

Women are expected to look after man-children and are deemed selfish and cruel if we don't, but as a man, would you put up with a "woman-child"? I've seen posts on this forum posted by males complaining about immature or overly needy female partners, and lots of other males telling them to dump her, so it seems a bit one-sided.

For me, a healthy relationship is two independent beings enjoying each other's company and supporting each other to a healthy degree, not one person doing all the work and being treated like a doormat. Women are expected to be universally maternal to all men, but if we need support then we are being unreasonable. I myself am autistic and have physical health conditions too, yet I still manage to look after myself and be self-sufficient. It's not often that I rely on others for support.

I agree about the chasing - I don't understand why men relentlessly pursue women until they wear them down, even if the woman is not interested. Obviously women aren't allowed to not be interested, then we are "selfish bitches". I have no problem with showing interest in a man, and I can also handle rejection - I've asked out guys before who said no, and I left it at that and we stayed friends. I've also been told that me not being afraid to ask people out or show interest makes me "intimidating", haha.

violetdr3amer said:

and some of whom were quite nice guys but total man-children and very exhausting to be with.

I suspect a considerable proportion of autistic guys. including myself would be described that way by some people. This is a total aside but whats so bad about a 'man child'? So long as he treats you right?

...

More generally to everyone talking about male vs female relationships I'd say this. Some one once described dating for casual sex to me like this. "If you have a key that opens many locks it is a master key, but a lock that is opened by many keys is just a bad lock. Men are the keys and women are the locks." The negative attitudes arises natural from a view that is normal for men to chase women and women not to chase men, even if they want them. Men must always do the work of 'winning over' the female even if she is already interested. This paradigm is the underling cause of the double standard. The only solution is for men to become less willing to jump through hoops for women and women more willing to actively pursue men. and instigate romantic / sexual bonding.

Well said JuniperFromGallifrey, dating isn't easy for young females either.

When I was in my late teens and 20s, I had very low self-esteem - I was undiagnosed, kept thinking there's something "wrong" with me, and didn't have great parenting, so I put up with a lot of abuse and bad behaviour from men. I also felt a strong need to have a partner so had a series of not great boyfriends.

My first long-term boyfriend at uni and I broke up because I found out that he was cheating on me the entire time we were together with another girl. Which is ironic because he was super jealous, paranoid and possessive. He made it out like it was my fault that he cheated because I didn't fulfil all of his needs.

My second boyfriend was a friend at first, he was pursuing me quite a lot, and the relationship only lasted 6 months - he pretty much only wanted to date me because he found me physically attractive, but found my personality too weird and embarrassing. Towards the end of our relationship, he punched me in the face because he found me annoying (yet I didn't dump him on the spot, which I should have done, because my self-esteem was so low).

In my final year of uni, I was super depressed and burned out, wasn't attending lectures, and was let down by both the uni and the NHS when I kept trying to get some support. A man who was much older than me became interested in me; he sexually assaulted me at a party when I was pretty much passed out (at the time I was too young and naive to understand that). He then proceeded to relentlessly pursue and guilt-trip me until I agreed to go out with him. He also insisted that I move in with him after a few months of dating, and threatened to kill himself if I didn't. I was with him for a year, during which he isolated me from all of my friends, and physically, sexually, and emotionally abused me. The breakup was very dramatic - it took me several months to get rid of him. I later had other women contacting me about him; he raped several women (including an underage girl) and has a long history of preying on much younger, vulnerable girls.

In my mid to late 20s I had a series of boyfriends, some of whom constantly undermined me and chipped away at my self-esteem, some of whom expected me to be an ego prop and found me embarrassing, and some of whom were quite nice guys but total man-children and very exhausting to be with.

Obviously now I'm older, wiser and have higher self-esteem, I am much more picky and wouldn't put up with any mistreatment or disrespect but dating isn't easy for vulnerable young women.

Plastic You and I could have some interesting discussions on this topic as you seem keenly clued into young males and their hardships. This 'effect' may be true for males, but not for females - at least not the ones I've known and not from the more involved psychology I've researched. This sort of engaging in a 'mating dance', can create a slave-like mentality or a type of desperation - females are deeply afraid of being discarded or isolated as it's the kiss of death in a very tribal part of their being (being physically designed different than males). Once in a relationship, if a female continues to intentionally create this attraction (which society is telling her is acceptable - and necessary) it can be damaging to her relationship - a male can feel like he's not enough for her or he can feel undermined as it's typically a sort of thing that happens ONCE the relationship is over. But this 'mating dance' is happening from both parties. Males can continue to get their needs met from porn (typically a higher percent but both use it) which females will pretend is fine. They'll continue to like and 'give attention' to other females engaging in this dance. There exists a fine line between a little fun and flirting and then being disrespectful to your partner - most individuals are not straightforward about how they feel about these things. Some women won't take a partner who appears to be just splashing his attention to everyone and everything around and some males will refuse female who are just 'giving' themselves to everyone... It's advertising and consumerism seeping into the rules of attraction and using the deepest fears of humans to fill their bank accounts. Subliminally. Sadly, intimacy is the victim here and two partners may never really experience it.

The word ' wise ' is the last word I would associate with the whole of Brexit. Hysterical or fear maybe  better words.

Peter said:

But I don’t think it was because they carefully weighed the options with a full understanding of the diplomatic, economic and legal implications.

You're getting closer. 

Peter said:

I think it had a lot more to do with the culture they espoused and their identity as British rather than european.

I would change the words " they espoused " to ' the information and propaganda they choose to sign up to time and time again without any critical thought.

Peter said:

Not all decisions boil Down to simple objective  cost benefit analysis.

Definitely not, especially when they are never spoke or written about in the places people choose to get their information from. If people are driven by fear, then fear is what the propaganda they read will feed them. There is no analysis, cost benefit, or any other sensible, logical or moral considerations needed for fear propaganda. They don't deal with detail, they deal in simple slogans and repeat them over years and decades. Bit like Farage, that multi- millionaire, supported by billionaires, who play the common bloke down the British pub, *** smoking, Barber Jacket, Range Rover,  who's fighting the establishment, yet flys to EU meetings on a private jet. Lol.

Also specifically with regards to sex work the limit is already set at 18 higher than the age of consent and wouldn't necessarily have to go lower just because the ages for voting / working / legal rights over property / money ages went lower.

If teenagers strongly feel they should be allowed to do sex work then if given the vote they could seek that democratically ... but i suspect they have other priorities.

The adult brain doesn't stop developing until around 25 so I disagree. I don't believe one is automatically an adult because of their age and honestly the law should reflect that.

I'm in my 30s but I still have a lot of child-like traits - no shame about it though!