SOCIAL ACTORS

quote Scorpion"That is, social behaviour, for neurotypicals, is 'instinctive', not 'learned'."...

made me laugh out loud , reminds me of that old chinese saying.. or is it Africian ? or was it Jung ? anyway I disgress..(typical Aspergers side tracked, lol)

The saying is Monkey see, Monkey do !

So, I think you may a very good point there , now pass me a banana.

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quote Easy "my theory is that the NT brain releases more chemicals (serotonin, endorphins, oxytocin etc) in response to social stimuli."

A very good point, the experts are now recently studying this regards the oxytocin hormone, which is the trust hormone. They think people with Autism do not produce enough of this so lack social trusts and cue mirror learning. For one,  I have major people trust issues, depression/anxiety and feeling like crap, heartbeat and blood pressure, stress gut cycle is all over the place when I am about people, so I live like a hermit, because my body is out to kill me(lol).  The mind/body biological regulators ARE OUT OF PLACE, so maybe hormone replacement is the way forward for Autism in the future.

Scorpion0x17 said:

[quote][/quote]

disagree that children dont have social roles,

to me it seems social development is driven by brain chemistry in childhood,

autistics get less of a buzz from social interaction, role playing and projecting their mind onto other people and things,

therefore they dont practice these skills (distractions ?) so much and seem odd.

I'm not so sure that's the case, Easy.

From things I've reads in the past in appears that the neurotypical brain is wired to adopt the norms of social behaviour irrespective of their value to the individual.

So, it is not driven by reward, rather the NT brain is hardwired to mirror the behaviours of those that surround them.

That is, social behaviour, for neurotypicals, is 'instinctive', not 'learned'.

And, it seems that, because the Autistic brain lacks, or is impaired in, this wiring, such norms of social behaviour are not instictive and must be learned.

I sort of agree with you, I think instinctive behaviour is programmed by brain chemistry.

For example, the tendency of some dogs to bark at the postman is caused by a neurochemical buzz that means they enjoy it and think it is fun and socially good behaviour. Different breeds of dog that have less of a buzz from barking at the postman and more of an ability for the frontal cortex to control behaviour in response to stimualtion from the primitive "lizard brain" can be trained not to bark.

My understanding is brain function is very adaptable, and the wiring develops due to different stimuli, for example children who never practice speech due to environment or culture will not develop their speech skills to the same degree, in that sense its not hardwired.

Its not that the NT brain sees social behaviours as more valuable, my theory is that the NT brain releases more chemicals (serotonin, endorphins, oxytocin etc) in response to social stimuli. I expect these stimuli are fairly primitive, for example hearing human voices or touch.

Jon, I see the mankinds world as a disharmony field, the more you trust, the more you can be lie too, everything is therefore a corrupt of trust. Where more than one person gathers there is hell on earth, the dualistic dross of mankind.

Honesty is a bitter pill to swallow without a spoonful of sugar, this is something I hate hearing as basically does that not mean your lying to yourself and everyone else?

sorry I felt the need to share this as this discussion does involve honesty after all.

:-) be kind to yourselves and true to yourself 

hohner said:

I actually see the world, now as sham, corrupt and irrational, hence why I posted the original post about social actors.

Hi Hohner,

is 'the world' you refer to society in general (British?), human behaviour or the planet earth? ...or something else? In your view are people with AS not 'the world'?

Calamity you make really good points there in your post.

I agree,  as with my Aspergers I also can be too honest, too open, too enquiring which has its good side, but can make you naive to the intentions of others, which breaks down trust bonds long-term with the world. I actually see the world, now as sham, corrupt and irrational, hence why I posted the original post about social actors.

This is a great discussion, I believe in being honest and being myself if other people do not like that, then they need to ask themselves why that is and this is where they will discover the answers usually there own stuff and not anything to do with me.

I only do things to the best of my abilities, yet sadly the society is filled with fake people who pretend they like you when in fact they don't and they are not congruent enough to tell you, they just go on pretending,which I imagine to be a tiresome thing to do day I day out.

Very interesting stuff in this discussion I love it :-)

When mirroring does not happen it is a true expression of personality ~ Jung

Do you agree ?   lol

Easy said:

disagree that children dont have social roles,

to me it seems social development is driven by brain chemistry in childhood,

autistics get less of a buzz from social interaction, role playing and projecting their mind onto other people and things,

therefore they dont practice these skills (distractions ?) so much and seem odd.

I'm not so sure that's the case, Easy.

From things I've reads in the past in appears that the neurotypical brain is wired to adopt the norms of social behaviour irrespective of their value to the individual.

So, it is not driven by reward, rather the NT brain is hardwired to mirror the behaviours of those that surround them.

That is, social behaviour, for neurotypicals, is 'instinctive', not 'learned'.

And, it seems that, because the Autistic brain lacks, or is impaired in, this wiring, such norms of social behaviour are not instictive and must be learned.

Cool words Hope,, I feel like a free range non-conformous now, it comes naturally it seems.., lol

disagree that children dont have social roles,

to me it seems social development is driven by brain chemistry in childhood,

autistics get less of a buzz from social interaction, role playing and projecting their mind onto other people and things,

therefore they dont practice these skills (distractions ?) so much and seem odd.

I know this is going off on a tangent a bit, but  I have been reading Freud's Civilization and its Discontents at the moment, and it seems to tie in with what is being discussed here. Civilization imposes behaviours on us that can be unnatural because we can't express our true desires. Anarchy is prevented by social order, but this order comes at the price of individual self-expression and honesty. A catch 22 situation really.

Going back further, Rousseau argued that 'the child is father of the man' because the child has not yet assumed a socially constructed role or character mask, but is genuinely free.

I feel that I dont want those skills,

they seem false and dishonest.

If I had spent my whole life trying to practise them I think I could have had them,

but they never interested me.

Pretending feelings I dont have is not something I can do with any sincerity or conviction,

So I think its better to be honest.

Doesnt seem to work very well, people find me boring as I dont get excited much.

I sort of realise now that if you act all excited when you meet new people or see something new you get more friends, but it never came naturally and now I just feel too old to fake it.

Thanks Hohner, Micky and Jon. I am totally new to everything that is aspergers/autism, so please bear with me if i say anything wrong, definatley not my intention.  I'm here to get support and information from others with regards to my daughter.  I can only go from what I see from her, not particularly from how shes feeling as shes very deep at times.  So what i;m saying is, i'm relying on you guys to fill in the gaps for me... ;0)) I appreciate you telling me if i am wrong or if there are two sides to things, thank you :) xx

I totally agree Jon, the acting when you are feeling something else is definately for others benefit. 

Hohner its like the whole world is a stage at times... and youre right about crime etc etc.. we are taking people at face value, when infact they arent who they appear to be.

"Nope, far from everyone knows these skills. This is why some of us are unsuccessful in social situations and end up spending most of our time by ourselves. I wish I could smile when I'm not happy but I find it really difficult." Thank you Mickey, yes i know what youre saying :) Thank you for replying and saying this :)

I have spent alot of my life 'acting' to fit in. It is unsustainable and draining. People around you think you are happy and coping when you are in fact not. It seems like it is for everyone elses benefit. Its pretty hard being yourself as that leaves you vunerable. It can be unrewarding and frustrating putting on a face but it is a coping strategy that I have developed. It is not really such a positive strategy. It would be great to be yourself with everyone and for everyone to understand and accept you as you are.

thanks Denise63, for me it seems there is too many layers of this social acting world, most of it is positioning, drama and bullshit, and then they wonder why is there still crime, poverty and war in the war. D'oh,, because no one is real !!!!!!!

I have been born without a full function mask, hence I can't cope in there social frameworks, but I see them very clearly.

Denise63 said:

I dont know if I'm missing some vital point here, but arent we ALL guilty of social acting.  I think its survival and a way of life to be honest.

We've all "pretended" we like a gift that someone has bought us, when in fact we dont.

We've all smiled when really we are having a really crap day and the last thing we want to do is smile.

We've maybe been bullied/ridiculed and grinned and beared it through gritted teeth.. when really we are dying inside.

We've made ourselves try and get on with someone we dont particularly like because of the social situation we're in.

All of this is social acting in my opinion.

I think its what we all do.  Maybe i'm wrong and maybe we should speak as we find. I think its our way of coping to avoid unneccessary conflict and hassle.

A very interesting topic though ) x

Nope, far from everyone knows these skills. This is why some of us are unsuccessful in social situations and end up spending most of our time by ourselves. I wish I could smile when I'm not happy but I find it really difficult.

I dont know if I'm missing some vital point here, but arent we ALL guilty of social acting.  I think its survival and a way of life to be honest.

We've all "pretended" we like a gift that someone has bought us, when in fact we dont.

We've all smiled when really we are having a really crap day and the last thing we want to do is smile.

We've maybe been bullied/ridiculed and grinned and beared it through gritted teeth.. when really we are dying inside.

We've made ourselves try and get on with someone we dont particularly like because of the social situation we're in.

All of this is social acting in my opinion.

I think its what we all do.  Maybe i'm wrong and maybe we should speak as we find. I think its our way of coping to avoid unneccessary conflict and hassle.

A very interesting topic though :)) x

hohner said:

Everything is a lie, he was never a doctor, he pretends he is a doctor... there is no example,, that is the point. Social constructed bullshit,, you be the king. I'll be the surf ! Do you see now ? probably not, you are caught in it

I thought people would pretend to be happy when they're not, and always smile even when they're sad, or that they might exaggerate their 'achievements' and brag about things but why would anyone pretend to be a doctor? I don't understand how being a doctor can be socially constructed. Being a doctor is not subjective. Either you are or you aren't.

Everything is a lie, he was never a doctor, he pretends he is a doctor... there is no example,, that is the point. Social constructed bullshit,, you be the king. I'll be the surf ! Do you see now ? probably not, you are caught in it