Sally Anne test

Longman, Neurotypical is simply a term used by diagnosed Aspies for everyone else

You're welcome.

The problem with being a female Aspie is that the proffessionals generally feel any form of autism is mainly a male 'condition', though personally, I feel this is because of how boys think.

All males at a young age don't tend to think about something, they do, then deal with the consequences. Young females tend to stand back and think about the situation before getting involved, hence why I was able to 'act normal' for so long around adults, but struggled socialising with others my age. If anything, bring this up at her assessment, highlight how shes -learned- how to act in situations, and that it doesn't come to her naturally. Its one of the most classic symptoms in girls from what I'm told. :)

Thanks for your perspective kalojaro. It helps to see things from an aspies point of view. My daughter is also very creative. It's good to know what to expect in the assessment, the only reason I worry is because she's so controlled and 'normal' when she needs to be but I'm sure these tests are designed to get past that. 

Us mums just try our best and hopefully I can be at the place you and your mum are if we get a diagnosis, thanks for your kind words x

Hi Justfour.

Longman didn't mean any offense to you, from the layout and context as well as how his reply was laid out, his grievance was directed towards the 'proffessionals' who decide whether we need help or not based on a brief interview, not you.

I'd be doomed if it wasn't for my mum, I was diagnosed last year aged 17 despite all the symptoms being there, only none of the proffessionals spotted it until things got really bad sadly.

What Longman was trying to express was that, even though you as a mum know virtually everything about your daughter, there will be things that you will merely know, and not fully understand.

I adore my mum, shes always supported me and knows me better than anyone, but its only in the past year since I was diagnosed that we've really actually tried to understand each others points of view, I'm now used to her asking about why I'd reply a certain way, and she's used to me asking simply why she'd respond to something the way she has. e.g. an old lady appears to struggle across the road, she'll run over to offer assistance despite to me gaining nothing from it. Rather than explaining about morals and such (which I only have an idea of), she'd state 'if I was old and needed help, I'd like for someone to do the same for me'. A philosophy I can understand and relate to without the complex matter of feelings (I have them, its just really hard analysing or expressing them most of the time). Shes accepted I will never 'get' what it is to do volunteer work or help others out of the 'goodness of my heart', but still helps me to act as part of a community while loving and accepting me fully.

Another example is that I pace a lot, this used to worry her and though she accepts it, I know she doesn't fully understand why I do it, despite being aware that from a young age putting me in a pram and pushing me around (the movement) would help me relax and sleep.

In terms of tests, when I was diagnosed, I had to fill in a form that rated my responses to questions from 'hate it' to 'love it', i.e. How do you feel when surrounded by people? To which I'd rate 'hate it'.

The second test was a lot of pictures of just peoples eyes. From those images, I was asked to try and decide what those people were feeling, and the methods I used to decide that.

There was also a lot of discussion about how much I hated change, and needed routine or would suffer from servere anxiety. Early childhood was an in depth discussion point. I've heard of this basket test, but I believe its only really used in America, and it only targets individuals further down the Autistic Spectrum (I've got Aspergers Syndrome/Higher Functioning Autism).

Also, a lot of people on the spectrum are pretty creative, the issues mostly lie within social interaction. I love drawing and animations, when I was little, all I had was imaginary friends because it was so hard trying to make sense of all the other kids (one pushes the other down, the kid crys, gets up, then suddenly they're best friends again?). But, I still think of things in a very structural, routined fashion. i.e. process of elimination is my main method. I'm not saying this in any kind of offensive manner, its just from all the paperwork and books out there about autism, people seem to think there can only be one or the other (creative autistic or logical autistic). XD

Good luck with your assesment.

OK OK Haythml....neurotypical is a general term for people who, even if not autistic, may face a wide range of other barriers to their lives, a point that those of us on the spectrum need to remember. Shyness can be equally socially crippling, although very specific in cause, and better understood by society. There are a lot of other conditions "non-autistic people" live with and suffer.

Perhaps I should have qualified my use of "neurotypical" to mean the attitude rather than the individual. The medical/psychiatric world behaves towards us "neurotypically" lacking either real understanding (or any attempt at it, as they perceive us as not trying hard enough at something they think ought to be obvious and dead easy). I'd be stuck to use instead that this was just a "non-autistic person's attitude".

What word would you prefer me to use to describe this attitude that makes it harder for us to get the support?

And care - neurotypical may not exist but if you are going to be precise what is autism, really?

Neurotypical doesn't exist. 

From your last reply I totally see where your coming from. I just read it as a neurotipical. Yes, very naive of me.

The one thing I will say is, I do understand my daughter as much as anyone could. I am the one who understands her frustration when she hears her sister chewing food too loudly(too loudly to her ears anyway) . When I say understand maybe a better word would be I know it bothers her for reasons no one else gets. When she won't wear buttons because 'other people might see them' I don't make her wear them, I buy clothes with no buttons because I get that for her own reasons she doesn't like them. I could go on. So yes, I don't understand where everyone on the spectrum is coming from but I do 'understand' my daughter.  I try and see as much as I can from her point of view. I'm new to all this yet I can't imagine someone experienced could understand every person on the spectrum as no one person with ASD is the same, all I can do is try. 

Good luck to you longman. 

Personally I thought my last paragraph a clever play on words, and in the context of what I had already written, clearly a criticism of those who use such "illustrations" too much as a guide to understanding people on the spectrum, rather than any criticism of you for asking the question.

But I do need to make a further point here. Your reaction is the kind of reaction your daughter is going to have to live with for life.

There's an expression covering people on the spectrum - "its not me that's the problem its everybody else". The perception is both false and true. It is the person on the autistic spectrum that causes the communication and behavioural problem. The reaction of NTs however is often perceived as unnecessarily extreme and unsympathetic.

Because they are not picking up all the information they need, and may well be picking up conflicting information (both in social communication and environment terms), people on the spectrum frequently breach convention. They cannot so readily pick up on convention or expectation in a given situation because it isn't written down somewhere.

Group dynamics in human societies develop from everyone in the group responding to others, including those taking the lead, and by mutual adjustment deciding on the social norms for the group. People on the spectrum cannot do that. So they might react wrongly in terms of the group expectation, or seem rude or insensitive or out of tune. Members of the group will take offence that one member hasn't obeyed the "rules" or respected the feelings of the group.

Frankly group dynamics are a convenience for NTs who need a social context. They aren't essential to life. And because someone has a disability that means they cannot engage successfully in group dynamics shouldn't mean that they aren't successful persons in their own right.

Tragically what happens to people on the spectrum is they come up against their failings in terms of group dynamics all the time. NTs, maybe because its automatic with them, simply do not perceive the difficulties with it that people on the spectrum face.

Parents of people on the spectrum do need to appreciate that their children cannot adapt to group social dynamics. They will always feel left out, be left out, and get hurt by it. Any why should they - because for the most part it is a social convenience, not a proficiency badge that has to be won?

I perceive your reaction to what I said, reiterated in several responses, to reflect your assumption I should understand your social "rules" - I don't, and cannot. You have a daughter who will face just such problems (if the assessment proves so). As I said before, take a step back and see things from her point of view.

My comments aren't meant to offend anyone and were directed at longman. I feel his response to me was typical neurotipical. Which I find offensive. Iunderstand people on the spectrum must have a lot of negativity and misunderstanding directed at them and I feel as a nt I got the brunt of some of longmans frustration. All I'm here for is to help my little girl and understand ASD better. If I ever say anything disparaging I will always apologize, but my first opening question was innocently asked as a concerned parent, I did not expect to be critized for it. When I said longman should try and understand nt's more, I just meant, the last comment I pointed out and found to be rude, seemed to me. Like I was being judged from one paragraph. I understand about as much on ASD as people on the spectrum understand nt's, yet I'm the one being insensitive? I was not rude or assuming in my first question, as I believe longman was to me. I'm trying to learn that's why I'm here. I just felt that longman was referring to me as being typical neurotipical naive. And I felt that was unfair. As I've said now twice, if I read it wrong I apologize. But I read it a few times and tried to see it another way and failed. 

Actually this is a bit unfair JustFour. I don't think Longman was being rude, and I did not think his comments about naivety were directed at anyone in particular, but it is undoubtably true - many 'neurotypicals' do not understand ASC. I personally think your last comment is a bit dubious, to say the least. People with AS, like myself, spend our lives trying to understand people without our issues. So to suggest that we need to try harder is rather insensitive. In fact we need a break from the daily struggles the 'NT' world hurls at us.It is the duty of those without AS to use their social abilities to try and understand us more, and not the other way round.  You are not comparing like with like: there is a fundamental power/ability imbalance

If your first comment was meant to be helpful then again, apologies. I'm not going to get into a back and fore 'he comments, she comments' but I will say this. I didn't take any of your comment as a "personal sleight until your last comment..

"sounds like typical neurotipical naivity to me" 

Pas I said, I'm here to try to understand autism as best as a neurotipical can. I'm not easily offended or over sensitive, I just found your last comment a bit rude. I'm trying my best to understand autism, maybe you should try your best to understand us neurotipicals.

I wasn't directing my NT references to you as a parent, and my apologies if you thought that. I wasn't replying to be "superior" or "belittle" you.

As a parent you may already have found that the NT world outside isn't all that switched on to autism. Many of us adults have had our fill of NT naivity about AS, and unless things change, by the time your daughter reaches adulthood you may well understand that reaction.

Parents are, I suppose, NTs as well, although parents groups tend to be autistic by proxy and families may show autistic traits. To do the best for your daughter you need to switch in to understanding of what it means. If your perspective is an NT mystified at her difficulties, which is my impression of your reaction, it might be useful at this point to step back and have a rethink.

I cannot help if you're only approach is to take things as a personal sleight.

Yes, I probably am a naive nt longman, I'm just an average parent doing her best for her daughter. That's why I posted the question about the Sally Anne test because I don't know how relevant this test is. That is what I presume this forum is for, to help people understand autism who have little or no experience of it. I am very grateful for all the help and advice I have received. 

Yet, if I'm correctly interpretating your answer correctly (if I'm not apologies) your superior attitude doesn't help me at all! Like I said, I'm learning as I go and asking questions to be the best parent I can for my daughter. I don't feel I should be belittled as a naive neuro typical for doing so. 

I think this illustration is so well known it would be difficult to use as a real test. It is there to explain to NTs who are trying to help people on the spectrum, and like a lot of illustrations it becomes blown out of all proportion or relevance.

For one thing the anecdote probably appeals more to girls than boys (simply in respect of the kinds of context). It is also rather dated.

We are at the mercy of guides to professionals that get bogged down in the relevance and universality of examples. It is meant to address theory of mind, in that a person with autistic spectrum characteristics might not know what others are thinking, and therefore only work with his/her direct observation. Seems sound enough, but is it really the case that everyone on the spectrum would reliably 'fail' this test?

Its like the other "cookies" dreamt up to define us. "Gaze aversion" is seen in children and teenagers as a response to difficulty making eye contact. As we grow older "look at me when I'm speaking", "pay attention" etc tends to sink in, and to please the rest of the world we look at or sort of at a face. We don't necessarily have eye contact though, and may be looking at other parts of the face or defocussing the face. But to the professional we appear to have eye contact, just because we don't show manifest gaze aversion.

Or social communication. To survive we have to compensate and emulate others. So many teenagers and adults manage fairly good social skills for day to day use for long enough to handle basic needs. So what do the specialists do? - oh he/ she seemed perfectly OK in a fifteen minute interview, therefore cannot have aspergers.

Because of lack of support most people on the spectrum have to try to conform at least for basic survival. But if we appear to conform, some short-sighted NT deems us not affected by autism. Little wonder some give up trying.

So I wouldn't worry about an illustration with dolls, balls and baskets - sounds like typically neurotypical naiivity to me.