That time of year...

Martian Tom said:

Maybe I should just say 'no' to the whole thing again, and hang what they all think! 

That's pretty much what I've done for most of my adult life; not just for Xmas, but also birthdays, Halloween, Easter, New Year (my least favourite of all), and any other time where people who wouldn't otherwise give me the time of day suddenly feel the need to show that they "care" just because it's part of some socially sanctioned ritual. I never did get the concept of setting aside "special days" for being nice to people, and I still don't. It's not that I won't socialise with people around those times - it's nice that we maybe have time off work/school to spend together, and I've had some lovely "not Xmas" meals with other, similarly sceptical, friends, even on Xmas day itself. But the fact of it being Xmas has always been totally incidental.

After getting on for 30 years of making it very clear that I don't want to take part, won't be sending cards/gifts and prefer not to receive them, I'd say that around half of the people I know have just about got their heads around the fact that I really, really mean it! The way I see it, if they really do care about me, then respecting my wishes can be the "gift" that they bestow upon me, and the fact that I'll try to be there for them in a crisis should mean far more than a tacky piece of cardboard and a pair of socks!

But if you do decide to opt out, you will still face awkward questions and condescending platitudes, and it's something that you just have to get used to...

• No, I didn't particularly enjoy Xmas when I was a child. I looked forward to de-stressing during the school holidays and hated having my time filled with forced socialisation with people I barely knew, and never could get my head around lying though my teeth when I opened yet another present that I couldn't for the life of me work out why you thought I'd like it.
• No, honestly, I'm absolutely fine spending the day on my own doing the things that I'd usually do. I won't be crying into my microwave dinner, and I will not find being gregarious any less tiresome than usual. Keep your goddamn pity to yourself, thanks.
• I am NOT trying to spoil anything for anyone else. You all do whatever you please, and if it really is all as much fun as you say it is, you'll have forgotten that I'm not there within five minutes.
• No, I'm not being facetious like all the other people who claim to find it all too stressful; it's not a joke, it's not meant ironically, I'm not looking for sympathy - it's  just a statement of my true intent.

Christmas for me - as a child and as an adult - has always been about being with the people I cared most about: my parents.  With neither of them here any longer, it has become meaningless.  My brother has married into his wife's family and his entire focus is on them.  He no longer has a relationship with his natural son and daughter (from his first marriage), but his step-daughter (a narc, like her mother) gets all the praise and attention.  If I'm honest, I think my brother feels eaten up inside over these issues.  He's been successfully Stockholmed by his wife and her family over these 30-odd years, and I think he's probably traumatised by it all without even realising.  He isn't a strong man, and needs someone to drive him - which she does.  But unfortunately, her driving force is negative.  And he, of course, can't see it.

The thing is, I want to send cards to certain family members that I don't see now - cousins, aunts, uncles - but if I send cards to them and not to him, he'll see it as a snub.  If I send one to him, too - just for appearances - I certainly won't be sending one to his step-daughter (I detest her, and she really upset me over the whole thing with mum).  But again, that'll be seen as a snub.  It's a difficult thing to play. 

I know what mum would do, because mum just wanted everyone to be happy.  She used to go along with so much because of my sister-in-law.  I can still hear her saying now "I dont say anything because I don't want to upset anyone.  I want us all to get along."  Even though a lot of it was pretence.  Doing it for the sake of doing it.  Bless her heart, she put up with so much.

Mum's sister, who is the only family member I still speak to regularly on the phone, knows the situation.  She often says to me "Your mum wouldn't have wanted there to be this split."  So I have to remind her that what mum would have wanted was for me to be happy.  And I can't be happy with those people in my life.  My bereavement counsellor told me, after mum passed, that I needed to move on from people like that because of the damage they have caused.  So, I have moved on.

And yet, clearly, I haven't.  I'm still stuck, trying to please everyone - except myself.

Martian Tom since the step-daughter seems to be the big issue, can't you send a card to your brother's family as a whole? 'Family x (brother's last name)'

I agree with Plasticthat it is only a card and a stamp, but the feeling behind it isn't so simple ofcourse.

Or if you really want to send everyone a separate card, can't you send that girl a boring Christmas card and the obligatory text. And just take your losses.

Oh, I know what it is like. You want closure! I do too, especially when things are unfair and you want to put them straight, but I don't always get my way...

It's that little pingpong ball bouncing up and down, isn't it? 'Joohoooo, you know that issue with your brother's wife? She should have.... etc.'

Let us know!

Absolutely.  As I said... he has his own bed to lie on.  He makes his own choices, as I do.

I suppose the thing with his wife is that over 30 years of damage isn't easy to let go of.  But I have in the sense that we haven't had contact.  It kind of feels like unfinished business.  But that's how it is.

I'd never try to make him understand why things are like they are, and why things have come to this pass.  I think I can give him credit for working that all out for himself.  If ever we did get together and talk things through, it would be neutral, non-accusatory, etc.  I've held out the hand for that conversation in the past, but he's never accepted it.  So that's fair enough.

I take your point.  I tried to keep it as neutral as I could.  We'll so how he responds.

Martian Tom you've got to let your brother live his life the way he wants to. And certainly try to get over the obsession on his controlling wife. 

If you can't do anything about it, let it go.

I know easier said than done, but ot doesn't bring you anything.

I think I know the feeling: you'd like to take your brother and smack his head against the wall to make him realise the relationship he's in with his wife and how he's lost himself and turned into someone else.

But he is he, you are you. His life, his choice. 

Even if you are seeing things crystal clear, you've got to let him live his life. 

And I swear, every family has something going on. That Christmas thing where everything is rosy and sweet and bla, it doesn't exist.

Have you seen the film Festen?

Blank said:

And it is easy to say: your mum wouldn't have wanted this. Sometimes families fall apart after someone in a central role has died.

Yes, she always says it.  But I think she understands, too.  She has a very similar situation.  She lives less than a mile from her eldest son, but rarely sees him.  Her youngest is the same age as I am.  He lives at some distance, and is very much like me.  He has no friends and lives quietly and alone.  I think he was actually closer to his father, who died many years ago.  It's a complex thing.  He was ill as a kid, at around the time his parents divorced (he was 8) - and she left home to go and live with her other man, whom she later married.  My cousins both eventually joined them, and the father lived alone.  But the whole thing did damage to my 'lone' cousin, and I don't think he's ever really gotten over feeling deserted by his mother when he most needed her. 

So... she certainly knows how difficult it can all be in families.  She doesn't say too much, but I don't think she especially likes my brother's wife.  And she never hears from my brother.  Not even a phone call - yet she is mum's only surviving sibling, and the next closest connection with mum.

It's like the glue holding everything together has just dissolved away.

Hope you don't mind me saying that it's a bit 'down' (although I understand how you feel). People have enough problems of their own so first contact should always be up-beat so they can pigeon-hole you into 'not a problem'.

Only when dialogue is firm should you mention negative things or you risk them prefering no contact.

Why not send something easy and shareable like a big box of biscuits or chocolates to them all - it shows you care but doesn't specify who you care for more than others.

I'd go with sending a card to the family with a generic "Hope you all have a lovely Christmas and enjoy the break and relaxation" or something.  Then you're not targeting anyone in or out.

I've said this:

Hi D***

If it helps: I sent my brother and ex Christmas cards for years and didn't get any in return. Had and have no contact with my brother, and very rarely with my ex (who supposedly was a good friend).

And then one year I simply thought: it's fine if I don't send any. I'm actually at peace with that.

Apparently it takes some time.

And maybe what you could do with your brother is talk to him on neutral grounds over a coffee and tell him rationally how you think it is a shame you two are no longer in touch. Don't blame anyone, just speak your thoughts and maybe propose to meet up like that without the wife and daughter. If he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to.

And it is easy to say: your mum wouldn't have wanted this. Sometimes families fall apart after someone in a central role has died.

But if you put yourself in his place, he's going to suddenly get an e-mail from someone apparently wallowing self misery - what's he supposed to do with that? He'll be a bit stumped and then spend days thinking on how on earth he's supposed to reply and then leave it long enough to forget to reply.

I suggest something along the lines of:

"Hi (xxx)

Just thinking of you and the family on this sad anniversary.

Hope you are all well and looking forward to Christmas.

Been a bit of a tough year for me but I'm keeping ok - I'm doing (xxx) for Christmas

The cat wishes you all well too."

His reply will set the tone.

I agree with sending and being the bigger person!

Thanks for that.  I was actually going to say something about how bad the year has been, and current health issues - tell him that the backwash from mum's passing has really hit me at last (which is true).  But maybe it's best as you say.

good idea - but I'd keep it really short and don't mention anything about your autism or work problems (don't supply the ammuntion).

Keep it light, just about wishing them well and some brief fluff about Christmas. Your emotional state may make you shoot yourself in the foot.

If a dialogue follows, then see how things go.

I work on a few e-mail rules - you write a 4-liner, their reply can be either 2-lines (non commital), 4-lines (not too interested), or 6+ lines which means dialogue is welcomed.

Their reply sets the initial rules.

I suppose my real fear is that by keeping open a channel, I'm also keeping open the possibility that she'll exploit it to get back at me in some way.   After mum passed, I used to communicate with him by text.  He could never understand my preference for written communication, and doesn't understand that I find phone conversations difficult.  Anyway... one day I got a text from an unknown number.  It was him, saying he was using his wife's phone because he'd lost his.  So that means that any text responses would go through her first.

I'm going to email him today - just as it's mum's birthday on Wednesday, and to see if he's okay and tell him about my Christmas plans.  But again - it's a joint email address, so they'll both see it.  Even if I wrote him a letter, he'd probably show it to her anyway. 

Out-laws are always difficult - and controlling wives are the worst. I see my brother once a year - he is so totally different to the guy I grew up with that I hardly recognise him. his wife is nuts. 

My narcissistic sister has no interest in the plight of others - she's out for no.1 only. Her husband is a selfish POS.

My wife's family are all sheep, controlled by the horrible matriarchal oldies who excommunicate anyone who steps out of line. We've been excommunicated because of the lies of my mother in law 4 years ago. That's fine by us. If that's how they work, they all deserve each other.

We send cards. We don't waste money on expensive cards - one from the box of twenty is all that is needed.

My only real desire is that they don't decide to come and visit and spoil my family's day.

Thanks again both.

I will send those cards, and keep it up, as you say.

It's all so awkward.  I mean, my brother only lives ten minutes away.  But he might as well be in another galaxy with the emotional distance.  His wife and her daughter between them have done so much damage over the years.  And he's completely closed up about the autism thing.  Shows no understanding, or any desire to try.  He never mentions it - and if I bring it up, he changes the subject, or 'normalises' it.  I believe he feels it's a stain on the family.  His wife just seems to lump it all in generally with 'mental health', which she has no time for.  She's one of these 'you just need to buck up and count your blessings, we all get down days' types.  Her passive-aggressive behaviour and manipulations can often be very subtle.  She's said things to me like 'If I worked in your job and people misbehaved, I'd slap them.'  She has always taken issue with anything that I'm passionate about: animal welfare, environmental issues.  I almost think it's deliberate.  I once mentioned Chris Packham as a positive ambassador for ASC issues.  "I can't stand him!"  she said.  End of subject.  As with those other things.  "I disagree with it."  For no other reason than that she disagrees with it!  She never elaborates or explains.  She and the daughter both squabbled with my natural niece on the day of mum's funeral - much against mum's express wishes for the day.  You can't win against people like that.  You'll never persuade them or reason with them.

And, as I say, they have my brother in their grip.  He's changed so much.  He's turned against his own family.  But that's his particular bed that he has to lie on.  I want to keep a channel open with him, and will.  But I'm sure her influence will always sway his mind.

I disagree - you send the card every year. If you don't get one from them, you carry on sending cards - be the bigger person.

Not getting a card can be down to all sort of reasons - most are accidental - lost in the post etc.

After a couple of years of them getting cards and not sending one to you makes them look petty and small. Being the bigger person shows you can take the heat and emotion out of family ties.

The words you put inside need not have any deep value - it's the fact you are doing it.

You are just still talking about cheap cards and a few stamps. You spend more than that on a coffee.

I disagree - you send the card every year. If you don't get one from them, you carry on sending cards - be the bigger person.

Not getting a card can be down to all sort of reasons - most are accidental - lost in the post etc.

After a couple of years of them getting cards and not sending one to you makes them look petty and small. Being the bigger person shows you can take the heat and emotion out of family ties.

The words you put inside need not have any deep value - it's the fact you are doing it.

You are just still talking about cheap cards and a few stamps. You spend more than that on a coffee.

From all I've heard and read about narcs, I think so.  I can always have fantasies, of course...

Which always leaves idiot-me to say something... Like in secondary school where everyone agrees on doung something and I was the only one doing it.

Also I don't think it's fair on the people she's picking on.

Your approach probably works better and is better in the long run

But no one will... because that's how the whole system functions.  It's all very NT, I think.  Cliques, pecking orders.  Don't p**s off the people who can make your life harder for you.

People are afraid she'll target them. Time someone puts her in her spot.

Really high time.

I've thought about saying 'Are you feeling better?' and when she says 'Yes, thanks' saying 'There... so much nicer than asking if you'd enjoyed your time off, isn't it?'  But it really isn't worth it.  She'd then just ramp up the game another notch.  They're best ignored.

Hahaha mean like me

But there you've got her weak spot Martian Tom you're probably too nice to use it against her, but still.

Being mean back in return is what they want.  That's why I refuse to play their game.  It's all about manipulation.  And once they take against someone, they can be relentless.  She didn't like another guy who started at the same time I did.  So she made up all kinds of stuff about him - saying she didn't think he was right for care work, etc.  Then she said he'd tried to run her off the road when they were out one day in the company vehicles.  She even bullied other staff members into supporting her.  She's shouted at the manager before.  She always plays the victim.  And she's always right.  Somehow, too, they seem to attract people like bees to a honeypot.  It's their bluntness and outspokenness.  The other thing is, people want to keep on the good side of a narc because they know the consequences if they fall foul of them.

Or next time she's off sick, get a non-work friend to fill in a 'get well soon' card and leave it on her desk - "Congratulations on your re-assignment surgery".

I actually spend a lit of time concocting answers like that. 

I must be hopeless :-)

That's it.  She rattled on about how her small daughter has a phone 'and it hasn't affected her,' etc.  Fair enough.  But she's one of those insecure people (narcs are usually insecure) who takes against anyone who favours something they disagree with.  Like my SIL. 

Like when she asked you that question after sick leave. And you go: Oh has no one told you? Oh, so sorry you are the only one who was kept in the dark then? (Walk off)

It is ofcourse very difficult to react instantly.

I guess that is because they recognise the weak spots instantly?

Ever tried being mean back in return? I can be very mean, don't tempt me

Pffft, that is why I don't like FB. Things are so complicated with all those online codes of conduct.

She probably has kids that are on smartphones all day.

Or watch TV all day or whatever.

And rest assured - as soon as I'm in their presence, I will do something wrong.  And then they've got more ammunition to use against you.  It's like you're proving that they're right all along about you.  It's insidious and horrible.  Narcs and Aspies are a really toxic mix.  They feed on us like vampires.

To provoke a reaction.  She knew it was sick leave, and though she didn't know what the problem was, she probably guessed it was connected to that incident where she shouted at me - which was a moment I knew she'd been looking for, ever since she suddenly got shirty with me on Facebook because she disagreed with something I posted (a news item about the impact of smart phone usage on children).  Her way of dealing with that was to unfriend and block me.  How do you like that?  Just because she didn't like a post of mine, which she could just as easily have ignored.

They're very crafty and subtle operators, narcs.  They know how to pull your strings.  They know how to engineer situations that put you in a bad light.  My sister-in-law was always like that.

Yes, don't get sucked into playing that kind of game as it is all based of negativity. But it is so tiring.

Why on earth ask something like that? To get a kick out of being vile???

It's always tempting, with narcs, to give as good as you get.  But that's precisely what they want.  Like the woman at work who smirked at me and said 'Did you enjoy your time off?' when I returned from sick leave.  Next time she's off sick, when she returns, I'll just say.  'Hope you're feeling better now.'  She won't expect that.  But I won't play the game.

I think that kind of closure is the stuff of Hollywood movies and bad fiction!

There's always something chipping away in every relationship - especially families.  We've had horrible rows in the past and there has been name-calling - then reconciliation (always instigated by me, incidentally.)  I've played peace-maker.  I've taken my share of blame.  And, of course - as she's a narc - she's always the victim, anyway.  It's part of how they play the game.  Wind someone up until they break - then you've got what you need: a reaction, that you can then point the finger at.

So... I know I must accept that it'll probably never happen.

Oh, I know what it is like. You want closure! I do too, especially when things are unfair and you want to put them straight, but I don't always get my way...

It's that little pingpong ball bouncing up and down, isn't it? 'Joohoooo, you know that issue with your brother's wife? She should have.... etc.'