I like eating chicken (rant alert)

NAS71232 said:

If you told me I can have steak if I killed a cow, I wouldn't be able to do it. Yet, if the meat is packaged in a supermarket, I would buy it.

What does that say about me?

It says you are human, that you are honest and care about animals. Not many people would be willing or able to kill their own food. I used to go fishing but couldn't do it now. We do the best we can. Temple Grandin designs animal runs that keep animals calm as they go for slaughter, for example. We can't all do that but we can keep pressing local MP's for better conditions for animals, so the message gets through. It is only silence that allows bad things to continue, once they are outed.

I know nature is unkind. I've seen videos online of people shocking cows with electric prods to get them to go to their slaughter.They know what is happening. I saw a cow clear a 6 foot fence after being prodded continuously with the device,.

It's not ok. I like burgers, but not if they are tortured. If you told me I can have steak if I killed a cow, I wouldn't be able to do it. Yet, if the meat is packaged in a supermarket, I would buy it.

What does that say about me?

Mankind can be so vile. When PETA post videos of the atrocities, people laugh at it. I know veganism seperates yourself from it, but it is still happening! I think live cams is the way to go. The world should see first hand what they are putting animals through.

Sorry it anything I've said anthing that offends. I wish I could post PETA links to spread awareness, but this forum isn't for that. Again, the animals are silenced. We are their voice! Veganism isn't the solution as everyone is omnivore. We can enjoy meat without torturing them. I'll be quiet as I'm had my meds. I'm just reaching out for them. 

I could make this thread 100s of pages long with links. I wish I could. This needs to be exposed.

What I would like to see is live cams on every farm. The world should be able to see the cams and report anything bad. You wouldn't believe what I've seen online.Thre was one case that really haunts me. There was a guy that broken the dairy cows tails and beat them for fun. An undercover employee videoed his confession on what he does and he was aressted.

There is so much going on to these animals that we can't see. Maybe a petition might have the power to see this live cam idea reach fruition.

Reminder of rule 7 Be respectful in discussions

I don't eat meat, fish and very little dairy because my body can't digest them, I can have very small amounts of dairy, but not meat or fish. I don't even think of meat or fish as human food anymore its all pet food, I can't imagine eating flesh again. I wish I could say the same about cheese, I love cheese, but my tummy really dosen't anymore, I'd often have a cheese board rather than a desert when eating out.

Like you Bunny I get fed up of having to explain and justify my food choices to other people. I wonder why people who eat meat feel they have to question those of us who don't in such an aggressive way? 

The Tail wags the Dog, these days.

Influencers are the new Educators, chock full of Clickbait.

The Vegan Movement turned from an 'Opposition' to an Endorsed mode of Fear Porn.

It's up to the individual to make food choices, no matter how bad they are. Too much Diana Syndrome.

NAS71232 said:

I would like to see a law where the animals, bred for consumption are treated humanely, like actual living creatures.

Many of us would like to see this. And no, yours is not a 'rant' but very valid points. There are also valid points made by families who have to put food on the table, with prices sky-rocketting. Myself, I like free range - free range and organic if I can [but sometimes it's not possible]. If all supermarkets only sold free range and organised their farms that way, prices would come down surely? So perhaps a law is needed. Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall made a telling documentary, 'Hugh's Chicken Run' [not on replay but you can buy the DVD] which was enough to put any moral-minded person off buying battery chickens - it even made Hugh cry.

TheCatWoman said:

One fo the things that confuses me about meat eaters is how hard they try and not know that they eat animals,

It does not take any effort to not think about something like this so I think you misunderstand the approach most take.

For the majority thinking about the cruelty behind the creation of the meat is up there with thinking about homeless people, child abuse, genocide in the Middle East and Africa, government control of so much of our lives, the disparity between the rich and the poor etc etc.

For them it is a subject that is uncomfortable to think about so is mentally filed away somewhere that it will not cause more distress in our already heavily stressed lives.

Having the capacity to worry about these things is seen as a luxury that they cannot afford since they need to worry about their jobs, their kids, paying the bills, the annoying neighbour, the vets bills for the dog, the car maintenance that is coming up, what to get their partner for their birthday etc etc.

It is wilful avoidance of thinking about it for good reasons - but one persons value of "good" is probably different to anothers.

I admire veganism because I know how hard it can be to stick so closely to an ethical belief.

I've been on the cusp of total vegetarianism my whole life (in fact as a child I wouldn't eat any meat or meat derivatives) but I do succumb very occasionally to meat (minced free range beef) or fish (battered cod), mainly for social reasons.

However, to be vegan I would have to give up cheese which I eat every day and is one of the few foods I will eat, and I don't like vegan cheese.

You have to look at all the ingredients of whatever you are eating or drinking etc to avoid animal products and not have leather anything etc etc.

Veganism can involve a considerable amount of self control and sacrifice. 

Well done to vegans.

I’d hoped it was clear, from my previous reply, that I didn’t want to have to re-litigate stereotypical arguments all over again. And I'd hoped to receive consideration, rather than confrontation.

You open by presuming to teach me - wrongly - what veganism is based on (reducing it, in a stereotypical way, to “emotion” and supposed insulation from various things).

That ignores, just for example, the substantial environmental case for veganism. The United Nations (for example) explains how animal-based diets have a high impact on our planet, contributing to land clearance and deforestation, loss of biodiversity, and greater strains on resources like water and energy. It notes that switching to a plant-based diet can reduce a person’s annual carbon footprint by up to 2.1 tons with a vegan diet (or up to 1.5 tons for vegetarians):

United Nations - Your guide to climate action: Food

The horsefly question betrays a lack of understanding. Whilst I can’t speak for all vegans, I wouldn’t swat it. I’d brush it away and take evasive action. So does the question about whether vegans’ care for animals extends only to those that are emotionally relatable, based on their behaviour or appearance.

Veganism involves having consideration for all animals. On a practical level, for example, any spiders, flies, moths or wasps in our home are escorted outside, via a spider-catching suction tube, when needed.

The Vegan Society defines veganism like this:

“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude - as far as is possible and practicable - all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

The caveat “as far as is possible and practicable” is important. Vegans should still, for example, take any medications that they need.

Ingredients-wise, it’s often possible to ask a dispensing pharmacy for vegan formulations. For my most recently-added medicine, for example, my prescribed dose is only available in gelatine capsules. But I’ve kindly been provided with a vegan tablet form. It’s double the dose, but licensed for splitting in half, and they’re happy to do that for me.

What people in peasant or subsistence societies may need / have needed to do has no bearing on what people who have ready access, today, to vegan alternatives might prefer to do, or their reasons for doing so - which can also include health considerations.

Nor does the existence of suffering in nature make it pointless to avoid causing additional, deliberate, and unnecessary suffering ourselves. One source of suffering doesn’t justify creating another. In my view, breeding and killing any animal for food is fundamentally unnecessary and inhumane, regardless of how the final act might be done.

In respect of your points about Darwin, quoting someone doesn’t imply agreement with everything they ever did. Paul McCartney - for example, as another person I quoted - previously ate meat. As did I, earlier in life. 

It’s also worth noting that ethical veganism has been held to qualify as a protected philosophical belief under the “religion or belief” category of the Equality Act 2010, which confers protections against discrimination and/or harassment.

I’d prefer not to continue this conversation, and hope you will respect that.

Yes, we don’t have Waitrose here and M&S no longer stocks RSPCA milk. 

. said:

I found in the end that I couldn't read the literature but just gave it out

I read some literature a while back about milk production which was difficult reading. There is a farm quite near to where I live and I can tell when calves are removed from their mothers by the  noise. 

ArchaeC said:

Intensive farming practices can be particularly stressful for animals. Cattle bred for high yield meat and milk production compromises their physical health and they are often spend long periods without space to exhibit natural behaviours. Not a happy life.

I used to collect for a charity which dealt with animal cruelty.

I learnt quite a lot and I think some people would be particularly put off products, especially milk, if they knew the suffering of the intensively farmed dairy cows.

I found in the end that I couldn't read the literature but just gave it out.

ArchaeC said:

It’s not easy to find out where animal products have come from, especially supermarket animal products.

No. That's why I recommended Waitrose and M&S due to their overarching policies as detailed by Compassion in World Farming (although I believe that you said it's not the same in Northern Ireland?), sadly.

. said:

But they aren't so avoiding meat and animal products is the way to go if you want to avoid the products of animal suffering

It’s not easy to find out where animal products have come from, especially supermarket animal products.

Intensive farming practices can be particularly stressful for animals. Cattle bred for high yield meat and milk production compromises their physical health and they often spend long periods without space to exhibit natural behaviours. Not a happy life.

All animals should have the opportunity to exhibit natural behaviours. 

I'm vegan and see no reason to eat meat. There are other options these days which don't involve any animal suffering.

Martin said:

Animals raised for food should not be treated cruelly, not constrained so that they cannot express their normal behaviours - cattle should be able to graze, interact with others in a herd, chickens should be able to scratch and peck for food and be able to move about etc. They should not be unduly stressed by being transported unnecessarily or by inhumane killing methods. These should be an essential part of any animal husbandry farming.

But they aren't so avoiding meat and animal products is the way to go if you want to avoid the products of animal suffering.

It's not as simple as looking at labels on meat and dairy products. 

It involves all the products that include these ingredients including ready meals and eating out, including products from animals farmed abroad with very few safeguards for them.

Martin said:

Veganism is based on two things, emotion and the insulation of modern urban Westerners from nature, the threat of poor nutrition, the land and daily interaction with non-pet animals.

It's actually far more nuanced than you state here (and more cerebral).

Simply killing is an awful thing - taking a life unnecessarily.

Martin said:

Would a vegan's care for animal life extend to not swatting a horsefly that was biting them?

Very often yes.

I'm not vegan but I do all I can never to kill anything, especially insects, and not to eat anything someone else has killed (I fail in this regard very occasionally).

I believe in the sanctity of life.

Veganism is based on two things, emotion and the insulation of modern urban Westerners from nature, the threat of poor nutrition, the land and daily interaction with non-pet animals. For any peasant society (outside of Jains and some Hindus) the idea of not eating meat, when available, would appear ludicrous. Would a vegan's care for animal life extend to not swatting a horsefly that was biting them? Or is it just extended to vertebrates and octopi, things that are emotionally relatable to, due to their behaviour and/or appearance? 

Animals raised for food should not be treated cruelly, not constrained so that they cannot express their normal behaviours - cattle should be able to graze, interact with others in a herd, chickens should be able to scratch and peck for food and be able to move about etc. They should not be unduly stressed by being transported unnecessarily or by inhumane killing methods. These should be an essential part of any animal husbandry farming.

Domestic animals usually have less stressful lives and deaths than their wild cousins, they are protected from disease, parasites and predation. Many predators are inefficient killers and their prey suffer much more protracted and painful deaths than happens in any abattoir - large herbivores falling prey to wolves, hyenas and Cape hunting dogs are usually partially eaten before death from blood loss occurs. In the face of the universal suffering of animals throughout evolutionary history not eating meat for emotional reasons seems rather pointless.

BTW Charles Darwin had dogs, to which he was attached, but he also raised animals such as domestic 'fancy' pigeons, which were killed and he then dissected. He was investigating how human selection for traits in animals led to changes in their appearance and physical anatomy.

Living round here there are a couple of "shooting estates", mostly it seems city types on some kind of works do, I'm ot sure how successful they are, most birds are to fully of shot to be edible, but I know some are eaten.

I don't like these big organised shoots, it all feels very feudal and we're all expected to get out of the way and not complain, espcially when the landrovers carrying the shooter are hurtling round narrow and windy country lanes. It does feel like the 'unspeakable in persuit of the inedible' as Oscat Wilde so memorable called fox hunting.

I have seen a few people out catching rabbits of the pot and of course many people come here to fish. Somehow fish always seem to get left out of these debates, especially shell fish like crabs and lobsters who are often boiled alive, which to me is as cruel as tearing an animal to bits with dogs.

Without meaning to be rude, I and other vegans have heard and read arguments like some of those raised in replies below (eg about “humane” farming practices, “assurances” from “welfare” schemes, that humans today should be omnivorous because of how we evolved, risks of farmed animals becoming “extinct” if we don’t keep eating them, etc) many, many times before.

In some ways, they feel quite similar - to me - to stereotypical comments or views about autism. I hope everyone can appreciate why that can feel increasingly draining, after more than 25 years as a vegan! :)

I won’t address them directly, because these and similar topics are already covered in depth in many places online. For anyone who might be interested in learning more about veganism, there’s a wealth of resources across these and other websites:

• The Vegan Society - vegansociety.com
• PETA UK - peta.org.uk
• The Vegetarian Society - vegsoc.org
• Viva! - viva.org.uk
• Veganuary - veganuary.com

NB I haven’t included clickable links to any specific pages, because some of them contain images that people might find shocking (but perhaps also informative or enlightening).

I’ll just end with some vegan quotes, for general interest:

• “Everyone has to find what is right for them, and it is different for everyone. Eating for me is how you proclaim your beliefs three times a day. That is why all religions have rules about eating. Three times a day, I remind myself that I value life and do not want to cause pain to or kill other living beings. That is why I eat the way I do.” - Natalie Portman
• “I personally chose to go vegan because I educated myself on factory farming and cruelty to animals, and I suddenly realized that what was on my plate were living things, with feelings. And I just couldn’t disconnect myself from it any longer.” - Ellen DeGeneres
• “Animals are not products. Life doesn’t have a price.” - Anonymous
• “I hold that the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man” - Gandhi
• “Could you look an animal in the eyes and say to it, ‘My appetite is more important than your suffering’?” - Moby
• “We all love animals. Why do we call some ‘pets’ and others ‘dinner?’” - K.D. Lang
• “If slaughterhouses had glass walls, we’d all be vegetarian.” - Paul McCartney
• “The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man.” - Charles Darwin