NAS perpetuating autism stereotypes?

That rather assumes that you've got the free time and clarity of vision to work out "how to put those other attributes to use in situations where the disadvantages can be overcome".

I consider myself very fortunate. My autism is at the abler end. I can step back from the tangle of issues and make those kinds of decision. Maybe you can too.

The trouble is - the more difficult and disabling your traits, the harder it is to see round them, and get them into any kind of order, that enables many people on the spectrum to undertake such self analysis.

I try to take into account my abler standpoint on here, that I cannot suggest well I managed it....why can't you? Hence when I was supporting students on the spectrum (despite a lot of soul searching and debate about the relative merits) I did not disclose to them my own diagnosis or direct experience. There's no way, where autism is concerned, that you can judge others' difficulties from your own perspective.

And there are few books that can meet that challenge.

For many people with autism it just isn't possible to get a clear vision of how the problems interact, and how they disadvantage you.

It is not fair to judge others by just your own experience.

longman said:

One book and one personal experience, very recently diagnosed, should, I feel, prompt a lot more caution rather than apparent knowledgeable authority (but then I must be guilty of that a lot too).

Similarly why are you playing down communication difficulties as if to say we are no different from the general population.

Black and white thinking is one thing. Denial that autism makes us in any way different or disadvantaged from the rest of the population doesn't help anybody.

I often recommend one book as that is the best book I have found so far for someone who is recently diagnosed. I have read lots of other books on the workings of the mind and psychiatry, cbt etc but many of these are academic and not suitable for someone who is trying to work out what to do next following a diagnosis.

I don't want to play down the communication issues. If anything I was trying (and obviously failing) to suggest that there were more problems involved than the non-verbal things that you described.

Equally I don't want to deny that we are different and disadvantaged. What I do want to deny is that we are disadvantaged to the point of hopelessness. Yes, we have problems and those problems are hard to overcome but there is a whole chunk of us that is separate to our autism. Everyone has their share of intelligence, physical strength, optimism and other attributes. The trick is working out how to put those other attributes to use in situations where the disadvantages can be overcome.

OK, could you imagine working in a health food shop? your knowledge of nutrition would come in handy there.

One of the reasons that your interests don't last may be that you don't get any encouragement from anyone else to sustain your interest. If you were working in a field of interest then you would get positive feedback and encouragement that might sustain the interest.

If I had an interest in these areas then they would be ideal options - maybe they are for some people with autism. But I cannot envisage working in these areas myself, unless my interests suddenly change.

Do you like gardening? Could you imagine working in a garden centre where you could develop an area of expertese in knowing all of the different plants and their attributes?

Could you imagine working in a pet shop where a deep knowledge of different animals and their needs would be appreciated by customers?

I don't think my philosophy is a hopeless one - far from it; I am very optimistic and am always challenging myself to try new things while defying people's expectations. But I am also realistic, and I cannot personally relate to the list of positive attributes people on the spectrum are supposed to possess.

I certainly have attention for detail in my narrow area of expertise, which is currently nutrition and learning arcane words. But my interest is incredibly narrow and egotistical in the sense that it is self-directed and solitary; I am not sure how I can utilise my interest in a work setting. Moreover, my interests change with little warning, which makes it hard to form plans and to stick to them.

There are different types of motor planning issues, and I struggle with sequencing and spatial awareness, which means that many practical and technical tasks such as computing and engineering, elude me - I am certainly not your steoreotypical 'aspie' in this respect. If anything, I often fail to discern detail and have never mastered Where's Wally.

I have spoken to other people with Asperger's who have corroborated these points. A friend of mine with AS laments the fact that she does not possess the sterotypical 'aspie' skills, and this perception has negatively affected her already fragile self esteem. She has many admirable skills and qualities, but they cannot be reduced to the simplistic list of special attributes that the NAS claims most people with autism possess.

I take Recombinantsocks' point about space in a pamplet or a web page you have to give 'typical' features, but precisely Hope's point is - are they so typical?

I do worry that the employer sheets overly emphasise things people on the spectrum are supposed to be good at. Having tutored undergraduates and postgraduates on the spectrum I've had the privilege of seeing a wide range of personas and abilities.

The steotypical computing and eye for detail stuff belies other skills: meticulous artwork, musical skills, both performing and repairing instruments, and composing, spoken and written languages, organisation and synthesis of ideas, specialist electronical and mechanical engineering (not just egineering aptitude, which is too broad), architecture..............

It doesn't help people in the spectrum if all the literature simply blurts out the same stereotypical assertions.

Yes autism isn't the only reason for finding it tough in the workplace, but we are on an autism website. I get tetchy though when someone makes the patronising assertion "there are jobs for people that are prepared to start at the bottom and do things that they would rather not be doing". It shows little real comprehension of autism, where many are having to do just that, on jobs well below their capability, and having to struggle with fitting in.  

One book and one personal experience, very recently diagnosed, should, I feel, prompt a lot more caution rather than apparent knowledgeable authority (but then I must be guilty of that a lot too).

Similarly why are you playing down communication difficulties as if to say we are no different from the general population.

Black and white thinking is one thing. Denial that autism makes us in any way different or disadvantaged from the rest of the population doesn't help anybody.

longman said:

I agree with Hope and Azalea about the stereotyping. I keep raising this on here and with NAS, but they don't seem to be listening - I suspect that NAS, like some health professionals, - take the view that because we have the condition we are incapable of having a perspective on it, except to be briefed to emulate the stereotype on the odd panel.

It is too simplistic. The stereotypes fit some people, maybe only a few. The rest of us are being prevented from exploring our potential because opportunities are not being created/identified.

Yes we are all different but in the space allowed in pamphlet or an article on a web page you have to give 'typical' features and you can't describe all of the possible behaviours of autism

Of course I don't mean NAS should only list reasons why we might let an employer down and be hopeless - is that this "black and white thinking" sterepotype again?  - either we are good at the stereotypes or hopeless? I despair of certain narrow perspectives based on one autistic life.

I am trying to counter the black and white thinking that says that life is hopeless and NAS is doing nothing to support and assist us. Actually, many people with autism (and I include Hope et al in this) are entirely capable of doing a useful job for somebody. It is hard but it is also hard for the bog standard 19 yo who faces stiff competition in the jobs market. It is hard but not hopeless, there are jobs there for people that are prepared to start at the bottom and do things that they would rather not be doing.

Pandoren is right too - there is this notion amongst health professionals that autism is about not being able to speak properly, and that all this non-verbal stuff is nonsense. On the contrary many people on the spectrum can speak competently. The difficulty is generating the correct non-verbal responses to back this up, and reading other people's non-verbal correctly. It is because of that we miss cues, misunderstand the drift of a conversation, appear rude or insensitive or inappropriate, misunderstand metaphors etc. But somehow these characteristics have got muddled up as being a language deficit. NAS is every bit as guilty of this.

People on the spectrum can speak competently but we often fall into misunderstandings and misinterpretations because our comprehension of the sublties of the language does not match our vocabulary. We mis-categorise words and miss the situations where the other person mis-speaks and uses the wrong word. Non-autistic people will not get tripped up by the occasional wrong word and won't be put off and will still get the correct gist of what is intended. We will tend to take each word literally, assign a single meaning to iot and end up with the wrong end of the stick.

Focussing on detail is valid, but as Hope says missing the wider picture often leads to mistakes, and certainly did for me. With support however some of us can apply some skill in detailed analysis. I just don't know how universal this is, if at all, and I doubt if NAS knows the answer either.

Everybody, autistic or not, makes mistakes. Yes, we may miss the bigger picture sometimes but we can make up for it in other areas. Missing the bigger picture occasionally is not a reason to believe that all is lost. We have to accept fallibility just as no-one celse can claim to be infallible. If you look on the negative side then there are negatives to the condition but that is not a reason to give up all hope.

I keep going on about the computing and numbers thing. Being good at computer games may not be an aptitude for all computing. Some people have excelled in aspects of computing and have found careers doing it. But a lot of other people haven't - so why does NAS keep telling employers this stereotype?  Likewise aptitude for numbers does not mean good at mathematics.

Computing and other branches of engineering are areas that fit many people on the spectrum. When we are working on a problem, similar to if we play a video game, it is just oneself working with a highly rational system that does not depend on our understanding of double-entendres or body language. The computer does not care about those things. It has a vocabulary where words have single, documented and precise meanings. There is richness of detail and intriguing complexity and the subleties arise from the sheer number of permutations of events and combinations of events that require unpicking.

Other careers are available. Christopher Jefferies demonstrated how you can be a successful teacher. His precision with language, his knowledge of the theory and grammar of language enabled him to pursue a successful career as a teacher in a highly structured environment where rules were set down and enforced and he did not have to employ the softer social skills that trip us up.

I think it would, however, be wrong to encourage people with autism into that profession as I am sure that for the occasional one that succeeds there are many that do not. The bog standard comp with its bog standard pupils is likely to be an impossible environment for people like us.

I think it is a crying shame that we are so misrepresented, and denied other possibilities, because NAS cannot be bothered to take this seriously.

That is black and white thinking. You portray NAS as hopeless and indefensible and not taking it seriously. Actually much of what they do is reasonable, definitely not perfect and capable of improvement, but it is not without value. If you want to help Hope et al then please suggest some positive things that can encourage them to look at other professions or careers that are more suited to their abilities. If you reinforce their negative perception then they will continue to believe that life is hopeless.

I am quite sure that they are capable of finding some outlet for the talents that they do have where the talents that they don't have are less important.

I agree with Hope and Azalea about the stereotyping. I keep raising this on here and with NAS, but they don't seem to be listening - I suspect that NAS, like some health professionals, - take the view that because we have the condition we are incapable of having a perspective on it, except to be briefed to emulate the stereotype on the odd panel.

It is too simplistic. The stereotypes fit some people, maybe only a few. The rest of us are being prevented from exploring our potential because opportunities are not being created/identified.

Of course I don't mean NAS should only list reasons why we might let an employer down and be hopeless - is that this "black and white thinking" sterepotype again?  - either we are good at the stereotypes or hopeless? I despair of certain narrow perspectives based on one autistic life.

Pandoren is right too - there is this notion amongst health professionals that autism is about not being able to speak properly, and that all this non-verbal stuff is nonsense. On the contrary many people on the spectrum can speak competently. The difficulty is generating the correct non-verbal responses to back this up, and reading other people's non-verbal correctly. It is because of that we miss cues, misunderstand the drift of a conversation, appear rude or insensitive or inappropriate, misunderstand metaphors etc. But somehow these characteristics have got muddled up as being a language deficit. NAS is every bit as guilty of this.

Focussing on detail is valid, but as Hope says missing the wider picture often leads to mistakes, and certainly did for me. With support however some of us can apply some skill in detailed analysis. I just don't know how universal this is, if at all, and I doubt if NAS knows the answer either.

I keep going on about the computing and numbers thing. Being good at computer games may not be an aptitude for all computing. Some people have excelled in aspects of computing and have found careers doing it. But a lot of other people haven't - so why does NAS keep telling employers this stereotype?  Likewise aptitude for numbers does not mean good at mathematics.

I think it is a crying shame that we are so misrepresented, and denied other possibilities, because NAS cannot be bothered to take this seriously.

Dear Hope et al,

What do you want NAS to say instead about people with ASD? Do you want them to list all the reasons why someone with autism would let an employer down and be hopeless? Actually we are no worse than NT's and actually we are better than NT's in some respects just as the NAS points out. The bog standard 19 year old is actually completely ignorant, dippy, clueless, just thinking about Friday night and practically unemployable. None of you sound like that to me. :-)

I don't understand why you think that there are requirements for spatial awareness or a need to be free of dyspraxia in computing. It isn't necessary to be any more agile than having the ability to sit at a desk and type with two fingers (I code for a living, am surrounded by aspies at work and we generally have poor skills at anything that requires physical coordination) It isn't a repetitive task - most days we are trying to solve new problems with new programs. Touch typing or even typing quickly are not skills that anyone cares about - we tend to spend more time trying to understand why the code doesn't do what we expected it to do or trying to understand what it is that our customers want us to do. Other careers are available - it isn't everyone's cup of tea but it suits quite a lot of us just fine.

Yes, I am all too familiar with the platitudes you describe. I have had my Asperger's downplayed before, when it is assumed by ignorant Joe public that I 'must be mild!'. And this is simply because I am articulate and can maintain basic conversations. However, they don't see how much effort is spent  in trying to understand how to maintain conversation and to appear social, and how I have applied my intellectual mind in order to figure this all out.  Being autistic is anything but easy and therefore 'mild' is an unhelpful epithet.

People have also said to me, 'you must be intelligent', as if I deserve a pat on the head. I am no more intelligent than many neurotypical people, but because I am autistic it is assumed I must have some special ability. I think these comments are incredibly patronising and demeaning.

I know what you mean. My interests are extremely limited but I don't go madly in depth about it, I don't have any degree of savantism or anything... I kinda wish I did, because at least that might be useful!

And of course another stereotype people look to is Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory...

Another thing that annoys me is that because I apparently speak eloquently and I don't have autistic stamped on my forehead, people I'm talking to can be rather dismissive when I say I have Aspergers, even if they think they are being accepting and kind... You might know the ones... "Well, you sound very intelligent!" "You are talking to me fine!" "You don't look it", etc