Is doing a good job about fitting in? Or doing it well?

Hi Longman,

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't try and get work. I have enjoyed, and not enjoyed, work all my life and think it can be fun, or awful, depending on the individual workplace and culture. The consultant that diagnosed me said that "the morbidity of an autistic person depends on the context in which they find themselves" i.e. a good environment can result in a happy autie, A bad environment can induce severe mental distress.

Now that I have a diagnosis, I am sure that I could have had a much lesss eventful and conflictful working life if I had only known how to moderate my aspie tendencies and appreciate how I was different to my colleagues.

Thus, we can potentially meet the world, halfway, by getting some accomodations from the employers but we can also do a bit to understand how we come across and how we are "difficult" to employ.

Some firms are more hierarchical than others. Aspies tend to ignore or undermine hierarchy because we don't respect authority for the sake of it. We respect knowledge and intellectual rigour. Maths and Physics departments in universities need (and tolerate) less hierarchy than some other disciplines. Some firms are built on holocratic or adhocracy structures. My current problem in my current job is that we have a very hierarchical management that includes an ex armed forces character who expects obedience because of his position or rank. I don't respect him because he doesn't have the techical background or behaviour that I would respect. We fight because I haven't learnt how to cope with him and he has no idea how to manage me. Who should bend? Probably both of us but I am finding it hard and he has no inclination to change as far as I can see so we may have to part ways.

This is not black and white! Nothing is simple! We should avoid thinking that there is a silver bullet that will fix things for us. We should, of course, continue to campaign for more awareness and to be accpeted for what we are.

Richard Branson perhaps....? He needs to keep his feet on the ground more.

I did write to Lord Sugar, several years ago, suggesting that a competition not so far removed from The Apprentice, might be used as a vehicle to increase awareness of the potential of people with various disabilities including autism. I didn't get a reply - as you can guess - although a factor may have been that was the year someone won it who had dyslexia - I might have been suspected of being a supporter.

However I do think we need something on the media that shows various disabilities in a better light, and does something to improve employment.

The Government mind you would cheerily respond what about paralympic games..... but while they've used sport as a flagship for their getting disabled into work (fantasy) schemes, disability still doesn't get anyone jobs. Sport is a good extracurricular activity for job seekers, I'm not sure how far being a disabled sports person (unless you become a celebrity) makes a difference to the job market.

It is curious also how many endurance programmes have been on the media, showing disabled people crossing the Arctic circle ior climbing in the Himalyas. I'm not sure it helps them find jobs. It might help them feel more positive about themselves, but the dignity of secure gainful employment is surely more valuable.

But I'm sure that someone someday will come up with a good television theme that follows disabled people, including those on the autistic spectrum. into the job market and into long term careers. That is why I had the daft idea of writing to Lord Sugar. It would have been nice to have seen his reply - even if it was full of grumphhhs and swear words.

More needs to be done to change this attitude in employers. It's all very well and good the government churning out endless schemes to get people into work (which never actually work), but they always act as if the employers are blameless in the level of unemployment. We are encouraged to just go for any old job and told not to bother focussing on our strengths. For people with ASD, this is far from an ideal situation. Social skills are so highly prized today that people are forgetting that they are skills - some people have them, some people ain't. Just like not everyone has the skills required to be a brain surgeon. It's not fair that we are made to feel worthless and like we can't contribute towards society when we could actually contribute a great deal if we were actually given the chance. This is why I want to create a working environment that allows people with ASD to flourish (I made a separate thread about it somewhere on the forum). I just need support and financial backing and I don't have a clue where to get either of those

It is interesting then to look at a NAS factsheet for employers: Recruiting Someone with Autism (including Asperger's Syndrome).

"People with autism typically experience problems with communication, social interaction and changes in routine, and may need some simple support within the workplace. Nevertheless many do well in jobs that require these skills, including some in senior positions. As well as their individual strengths and talents, candidates with autism often demonstrate above-average skills in some or all of the following areas:

high levels of concentration

reliability, conscientiousness and efficiency

accuracy, close attention to detail and the ability to identify errors

technical ability such as in IT

detailed factual knowledge, and an excellent memory

This means that someone who has autism may be better at a particular job than someone who does not".

Well I do wonder whether employers (recruiters are seldom that high up management) see this as a favourable reference. It starts with no capacity to fit in socially. Then goes on to suggest they will be diligent grafters, quick to spot where things are going wrong, and will definately be after your job!

That is NOT a recommendation to employ someone with autism.

Also after coming up with the statistic that more than 4 out of 5 people on the spectrum don't find long term employment, how does NAS come up with phrases like "many do well......including some in senior positions".

Sadly most of NAS's factsheets are platitudes. They don't demonstrate any real understanding. They don't do us any favours.

Nah, I'm sure it wasn't sarcasm. But my manager did constantly mention how I wasn't socialising much with my colleagues, always made a point of saying how introverted I was, so I reckon it was just fitting in with the "a good worker is a good chatter" ideology. I like how you put it, actually - I will have to use that in future conversation!

I definitely agree with you that grafters are perceived as threats and as rivals. Often employees most vocal about how much they disliked me etc were the ones who did the least work, were the most gossipy and were the most spiteful.

I can't help being a hard worker. It's in my aspie nature to want to finish a job through properly with as few distractions as possible. That should be seen as a good thing in the workplace, but instead, it seems to be one of the worst things one can do.

I wonder if the suggestion - could you look like you were working harder - was sarcasm? It also bears out that the manager's idea of a good worker was a good chatter. 

People in work place hierarchies don't like grafters - people who work well and hard. There's a logical reason for this - most people aren't committed workers. They want to chat all the time, and they resent working hard for the wages they get. So someone showing them up isn't perceived as helpful.

Also anyone working diligently is perceived as a rival - after their job.

I should have said, I guess, in my original posting, that the diligence and committedness of people in the spectrum is often their undoing  - because work colleagues feel vulnerable and conspire to get them sacked. While it is true, what I set out to do was state an over-simplified challenging standpoint.

Also I hoped the by-line might help get this thread get picked up on google. I'm being provocative.

I'm puzzled by recombinantsocks reply .....are you saying people on the spectrum shouldn't try to seek employment? You appear to be defending current workplace ethics and implying its all out own faults. Maybe though it is "black and white thinking".

I have to agree with some of your points Longman. Often I have seen staff members at work praised by managers for their hard work when most of the time they are just chatting to other members of staff! Not only that, but I have seen managers doing exactly the same thing! When I was working at Asda I actually had a manager tell me he knew I worked hard, but could I look like I'm working harder! I was only stacking shelves and I did it much faster than most of my colleagues, how could I possibly look like I'm stacking shelves any more than I already was? Working life has become a culture these days unfortunately, so it's pretty bad news for those of us who don't 'fit in' to the regular mould

longman said:

I thought it worth posing this questions as it underlies a lot of the problems faced by people on the spectrum in obtaining employment.

We currently live in a society where fitting in is more important than ability to do a good job. The work place is a social environbment. Many hours of productivity are lost by the amount of time frittered away by employees socialising on the job, when they should be getting down to it. Promotion often depends on joining Round Table or Freemasons, whether your partner is a good cook and has people round for candlelit suppers.

The BIG problem for this country atr the moment is the capacity of employees to waste time at work.

People on the spectrum have the unusual and valuable talent of being able to focus on a job and stay with it to completion. They don't need social displacement activity.

Yet often they cannot gain or hold down a job, primarily because they cannot do the social bit.

British employers should wake up to the value of hard working committed employees not being allowed to work just because they cannot socialise.