I'd love it if anyone fancied reading and discussing the Anglo-Saxon poem, The Dream of the Rood.
You can find it online both in written form and a you-tube video, I'd C&P it, but as many of you know, I don't know how to do that.
But it would be lovely to share this with you and your thoughts?
I would actually like to do this. I do enjoy longer poems too, like The Hunting of the Snark, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, and The Lay of Leithian (a book long poem Tolkien did of one of his Silmarilian stories). I'll try read it over the holidays.
Thanks Cinnabar Wing, I'm not usually a poetry fan, but there are a few I like, apart from the Anglo-Saxon ones, which interest me more from an historical perspective about how they thought about the world.
I'm also a big fan of The Emporors Babe, by Bernadine Evaristo and Sekhment by Margaret Attwood..
Back from walking the kids and being made to scramble up muddy banks in the wood, so a sit down with a cuppa and reading it was just right.
I'm not religious, so I hope I don't offend anyone, but know it all from school. I found it really interesting that the poem centers around the tree, the cross and it's part in the crucifixion story. The melding of the differing views of it, from the gilded and jewel bedecked to the simple bloodied base wood of the tree. The idea and symbolism of the tree itself was an interesting take on a story people have heard many times and gives space for different ways of thinking about it I think.
whats the difference between a god and an immortal?
The idea of Tuatha Dé Danann as immortal humans with super human powers rather than gods with supernatural powers is mainly because the medieval texts don’t call them gods and the same texts also refer to similar tribes of people with similar powers.
It’s very difficult to find credible academic resources on Tuatha Dé Danann. I found this which looks ok for starters, even if the conclusion wouldn’t be accepted by everyone. The references look worth checking out. https://ansionnachfionn.com/seanchas-mythology/tuatha-de-danann
I wonder if the motivations weren't because they were so popular and writing them down and putting a Christian gloss on them was a way of stopping people believing in magic and paganism?
I think that’s possible. The author in the linked article argues that the original name was Tuath Dé which meant “People of the Gods”. This name conflicted with the literal title of the Hebrew Bible’s “People of God”.
I’m open to believing the origin myths first began in Ireland but I am reluctant to commit one way or the other without evidence.
I don’t think the myths originated in Greece either. It’s possible, but I haven’t seen any evidence of it. People took it for granted until recently that Greece and Rome were responsible for making the western world the society it is. The people who lived in what is now Greece were influenced by other cultures such as the Sumerians, Egyptians, Scythians and Thracians. Trade routes were busy with people coming and going places. Some of those cultures bypassed the land that is now Greece to reach Ireland. We are a real mishmash.
Well thats given me something to think about, whats the difference between a god and an immortal? Some believe the De Dannans to be bronze age peoples that are mentioned in the legends.
I wonder if the motivations weren't because they were so popular and writing them down and putting a Christian gloss on them was a way of stopping people believing in magic and paganism? Around the time a lot of these stories were being written down there was little or no distinction between history and myth, they were just origin stories mostly. I don't think all of these tales came from Greece or Rome, I think thats typical of classicists believing only Greece and Rome were the fount of all knowlege and stories. I think a link across central europe is just as likely, or maybe they've been around for so long they predate Greece and Rome, there were plently of people around before Greece came to prominence, theres even been some sugestions of them coming from Minoan Crete, I think thats a bit of a stretch personally but theres no reason why not as there were trade links between mediteraean cultures and Britain and Ireland. But why couldn't they be indigenous? The coming of the Milesians from Iberia was thought to be just such another myth until ancient DNA studies proved the connections between Iberia and Ireland.
The legends of Odin hanging on the World Tree could be older than Christ or come from around the same time, it would all depend on when and how the northern people encountered Christianity. Although I do think we tend to think of both Rome and Christianity as being monolithic blocks that were the same everywhere and across time when they really weren't.
It's often easier to see in much older stories and poems what's original and what's a later insertion, particualarly with some of the old Irish tales
There are hints for sure. In Irish mythology, the Tuatha Dé Danann are considered by many to be pagan gods but some think they would be more correctly described as immortals. Even though many Irish myths were written down by medieval Christians, experts are undecided where the original influence comes from, with some even suggesting the Greeks and Romans. Experts can’t fully identify the motives of the Christian writers for recording these myths although most agree they contain bias. It makes it very difficult to date them with confidence.
You have more knowledge about the arguments for or against a pre-Christian date for the tree hanging poem than I do.
I'm not watching Pilgrimage, it's one of those things that dosen't really appeal to me for some reason.
I'm not sure I agree with it being a pre-Chrisitan poem, I know that there are many gods who offer themselves as a sacrifice, but apart from the commonality of hanging on a tree I don't see the connection with the story of Christ. To me the whole poem is so evocative of the conversion period, I can often tell when something has been Christianised from an older pre-Christian source, this dosen't have that ring to it for me. Usually when something's been interered with, its by a saint popping along and stopping someone doing something with a sort of "so there" feeling to it. Or the themes get mangeled and you have to pick them apart, it dosen't help that many of the saints mentioned in these sorts of poems are of dubious historicicity themselves or thier dates are. It's often easier to see in much older stories and poems what's original and what's a later insertion, particualarly with some of the old Irish tales and some of the Mabinogi, these are obviously much older in date than when they were first written down, which lead to the other big probelm, which is dating. Some believe these stories to be not much older than the date they were first written down, others like me see them as much older, I think it was these monastic chronichlers that often mangled the stories by adding a Christian gloss
P.S. CatWoman, have you been watching Pilgrimage on BBC2? There were themes of Celtic Spirituality and one participant is a pantheist. It was nice to see positive engagement between people from diverse faith or atheist traditions.
As an outsider to pantheism, I had thought that the nature of pantheism would preclude thinking of Jesus as just another god but for you I can see how it could give you less bias when looking at religions from the outside, whereas I come with oodles of baggage. Striving to be an unbiased researcher of religion can involve jumping through hoops.
The similarities between the Odin’s tree hanging poem and the crucifixion of Jesus reflect shared human ideas of sacrifice, wounding and a hanging on a symbolic tree. These themes are also found in other non-Christian cultures around the world so that would suggest it wouldn’t be a stretch for the author/scribe of the Odin poem to include Jesus in the pantheon.
I think the poem has been handed down orally from pre-Christian times, so the scribe of the later written source may have encountered Christianity in Rome. Christian missionaries were infiltrating areas in Northern Europe, so I think it is equally likely an encounter could have occurred elsewhere in Europe. Because the sources for the poem are much later than the original idea, we shall never know. I know I’m always banging on about it, but this is why I need a personal philologist, yet even that mightn’t help me as the texts have already been scrutinised by philologists and they remain illusive.
There is a 7th century written source by Jonas of Bobbio which relates an account of St Columbanus encountering a beer offering to Odin in Swabia (southern Germany).
I love how pagan seasonal themes have embedded themselves in Christianity. They have not impacted the theology, including christology and soteriology (doctrine of salvation) for most Christians. Easter eggs are loosely associated with birth and renewal which relates to the resurrection of Jesus in a new form on earth and in heaven.
As a pantheist I can easily see how Jesus could be seen as just another God, a pantheist headspace and way of thinking is totally different to a monotheism and even though I wasn't brought up in any religion, it still took me some years to stop thinking in terms of monetheism.
If you look at the similarities between some of the Odin stories, of his hanging on a tree to gain wisdom, I think this might explain some of why Jesus could be viewed as just another god.
I wonder if the author of the poem had been to Rome or some of the richer churches in Europe? It would seem that richly decorated churches didn't come along until a bit later in Britain, the Columban church was quite austere from my reading of it.
There's quite a lot of things that come from Pagan beliefs in Western Christianity in general, even the word Easter comes from the Goddess Ostara, the Goddess of spring, it's where the tradition of easter eggs comes from. Christmas is the most obvious Christian takeover, but then a midwinter festival is common across ancient Western cultures, particularly the further north you go.
I've heard it described as Catholics worship the dead Christ and Protestants the risen Christ?
There is an element of truth in that but Catholics don’t worship the dead Christ. The Catholic Easter ceremonies ‘bring to mind’ the passion, death and resurrection of Christ through the form of the liturgy over Holy Thursday (The Last Supper [followed by Jesus making his way to Gethsemane to pray all night until morning]), Good Friday, (Crucifiction), Holy Saturday (very little happens as Jesus isn’t yet risen), Easter Sunday (Resurrection). The liturgy takes the form of ‘being present’ to God so prayers and acclamations may be in the present tense, e.g., “He is risen!”, but it doesn’t mean that Catholics think it is actually happening in the present, other than in a spiritual sense because they know it happened 2000 odd years ago. There is certainly a big sense of being present to Jesus as he endures the lead up to the crucifixion and some people put themselves ‘in the scene’ as a way to live the experience by his side. The liturgy usually pauses during the moments after Jesus has died. The pause can help people contemplate the enormity of what has just happened. Staying with the dead body of Jesus on the cross and in the tomb is an important part of the liturgy, but it doesn’t mean that the Jesus who resurrected and ascended into heaven is disregarded.
Historically, there had been debate about whether salvation is attained by the ‘crucifixion’ or by the ‘resurrection’. Nowadays, both elements are considered essential in Christianity, although Protestants don’t usually spend as much time agonising over the crucifixion as Catholics. I’m not familiar with the Orthodox traditions.
I wonder if this could be part of the belief that after what is known in Norse as Ragnaroc, the gods and the worlds will rise again from the roots of the World Tree, Yygdrasil?
The social structure and belief systems that prevailed make your suggestion plausible. I might try to find out more about this tomorrow. In Christianity it is said that “all creation will be saved”. More recently, theologians are concerning themselves with what this means for the earth and its resources which would include trees. Although there is no suggestion that mainstream Christianity considers trees personified, poems and meditative works have alluded to them having some sort of animate quality.
The more I read the poem the more it grows on me.
I'm not sure they were superstitious if I'm honest, I think they honestly believed that there was more than one God, its very hard to give up something you've believed in or known all your life for a whole different world view and set of beliefs.
Thanks ArchaeC I was just about to write about the political angle as your post popped up.
Rome and its days of glory were well remembered and known in the early medieval, it would have been a familiar theme in the lives of those alive during the conversion period, if not in living memeory, then maybe a parent or grandparents living memory. So anything coming from Rome would have had a greater credence than otherwise, it was also the case that the Western Empire whilst no longer a political entity was very much a religious one and the advantages of belonging to it would have been better trade and being part of something both historical and reflecting a newer political reality. What isn't known is how deep Christianity ran in those newly baptised, for some it would have undoubtedly been very deep and genuine, whilst for others it would of been a skin deep convienence. I also wonder if the Christian clergy epsecially the Roman Catholic ones who were much more hierarchical and patriarchal, thought that by having a local King or headman baptised and all of his household, tennants etc they were gathering souls? A bit like some Mormon churches have been said to do, by going through public birth, death and marriage registers and baptising people without their knowlege sometimes retrospectively?
One of the problems is that there wasn't a unified church at the time, just as there isn't now, various herasies, such as Pelagianism were still being practiced, there was a huge difference between not just the structure of of the Catholic Church, but the Columban/Irish one and we don't really know anything about what the Romano-British who were at least nominally Christian believed.
I think the poem is beautiful, the way it sets out the suffereing and awareness of the tree, that wood isn't dead and as others have said that tree's will be saved too. I wonder if this could be part of the belief that after what is known in Norse as Ragnaroc, the gods and the worlds will rise again from the roots of the World Tree, Yygdrasil? We don't know a great deal about the Pagan beliefs of the A/S's, only that they were similar to those of Scandinavia.
I dont' really know how the Catholic church views the cross at easter or anyother time for that matter, only that the common symbol is Christ on the Cross, where as Protestants prefer an empty cross. I've heard it described as Catholics worship the dead Christ and Protestants the risen Christ?
I guess it would also change depending on who converted which A/S peoples, The Irish Church, from Iona, or The Catholic Church from Cantabury
The Irish monk St Aidan was reputed to have been primarily concerned with establishing good relationships on his missions. Others such as those sent by Rome may have targeted more aggressively. Politics, status, the law and other motives could have had a place in ‘encouraging’ or perhaps ‘forcing/blackmailing’ people into conversion, yet there was also likely a gradual assimilation of beliefs that would vary between regions over many years rather than one unified Christianity system.
I think we can learn a lot about the subject by looking at evidence of religious belief/practice from more recent history, here and around the world. Common themes responsible for religiosity emerge including faith, desire, fear, politics, status, money, political favour and coercion. I don’t think Bede’s accounts are reliable.
I wonder how much Jesus was seen as just another God?
It would be difficult to know without written sources as even within a seemingly unified church, there are a variety of individual beliefs, yet as a body people say the one creed. That is known from church discussion/bible groups as well as other sources. Some people in other countries retain elements of a different religion that would seem a contradiction to Christians in this country.
Like people pleasing on a higher plane
It's easy to imagine the superstition of these warring times, of not wanting to anger their old gods, and the desire to keep any new ones 'on side' so they might be favoured over their enemies. It must have been quite stressful to be so deity pleasing. (Like people pleasing on a higher plane)
It's easy to imagine the superstition of these warring times, of not wanting to anger their old gods, and the desire to keep any new ones 'on side' so they might be favoured over their enemies. It must have been quite stressful to be so deity pleasing. (Like people pleasing on a higher plane)
I've heard it described as Catholics worship the dead Christ and Protestants the risen Christ?
There is an element of truth in that but Catholics don’t worship the dead Christ. The Catholic Easter ceremonies ‘bring to mind’ the passion, death and resurrection of Christ through the form of the liturgy over Holy Thursday (The Last Supper [followed by Jesus making his way to Gethsemane to pray all night until morning]), Good Friday, (Crucifiction), Holy Saturday (very little happens as Jesus isn’t yet risen), Easter Sunday (Resurrection). The liturgy takes the form of ‘being present’ to God so prayers and acclamations may be in the present tense, e.g., “He is risen!”, but it doesn’t mean that Catholics think it is actually happening in the present, other than in a spiritual sense because they know it happened 2000 odd years ago. There is certainly a big sense of being present to Jesus as he endures the lead up to the crucifixion and some people put themselves ‘in the scene’ as a way to live the experience by his side. The liturgy usually pauses during the moments after Jesus has died. The pause can help people contemplate the enormity of what has just happened. Staying with the dead body of Jesus on the cross and in the tomb is an important part of the liturgy, but it doesn’t mean that the Jesus who resurrected and ascended into heaven is disregarded.
Historically, there had been debate about whether salvation is attained by the ‘crucifixion’ or by the ‘resurrection’. Nowadays, both elements are considered essential in Christianity, although Protestants don’t usually spend as much time agonising over the crucifixion as Catholics. I’m not familiar with the Orthodox traditions.
I wonder if this could be part of the belief that after what is known in Norse as Ragnaroc, the gods and the worlds will rise again from the roots of the World Tree, Yygdrasil?
The social structure and belief systems that prevailed make your suggestion plausible. I might try to find out more about this tomorrow. In Christianity it is said that “all creation will be saved”. More recently, theologians are concerning themselves with what this means for the earth and its resources which would include trees. Although there is no suggestion that mainstream Christianity considers trees personified, poems and meditative works have alluded to them having some sort of animate quality.
The more I read the poem the more it grows on me.
I'm not sure they were superstitious if I'm honest, I think they honestly believed that there was more than one God, its very hard to give up something you've believed in or known all your life for a whole different world view and set of beliefs.
Thanks ArchaeC I was just about to write about the political angle as your post popped up.
Rome and its days of glory were well remembered and known in the early medieval, it would have been a familiar theme in the lives of those alive during the conversion period, if not in living memeory, then maybe a parent or grandparents living memory. So anything coming from Rome would have had a greater credence than otherwise, it was also the case that the Western Empire whilst no longer a political entity was very much a religious one and the advantages of belonging to it would have been better trade and being part of something both historical and reflecting a newer political reality. What isn't known is how deep Christianity ran in those newly baptised, for some it would have undoubtedly been very deep and genuine, whilst for others it would of been a skin deep convienence. I also wonder if the Christian clergy epsecially the Roman Catholic ones who were much more hierarchical and patriarchal, thought that by having a local King or headman baptised and all of his household, tennants etc they were gathering souls? A bit like some Mormon churches have been said to do, by going through public birth, death and marriage registers and baptising people without their knowlege sometimes retrospectively?
One of the problems is that there wasn't a unified church at the time, just as there isn't now, various herasies, such as Pelagianism were still being practiced, there was a huge difference between not just the structure of of the Catholic Church, but the Columban/Irish one and we don't really know anything about what the Romano-British who were at least nominally Christian believed.
I think the poem is beautiful, the way it sets out the suffereing and awareness of the tree, that wood isn't dead and as others have said that tree's will be saved too. I wonder if this could be part of the belief that after what is known in Norse as Ragnaroc, the gods and the worlds will rise again from the roots of the World Tree, Yygdrasil? We don't know a great deal about the Pagan beliefs of the A/S's, only that they were similar to those of Scandinavia.
I dont' really know how the Catholic church views the cross at easter or anyother time for that matter, only that the common symbol is Christ on the Cross, where as Protestants prefer an empty cross. I've heard it described as Catholics worship the dead Christ and Protestants the risen Christ?
Like people pleasing on a higher plane
