I'd love it if anyone fancied reading and discussing the Anglo-Saxon poem, The Dream of the Rood.
You can find it online both in written form and a you-tube video, I'd C&P it, but as many of you know, I don't know how to do that.
But it would be lovely to share this with you and your thoughts?
I would actually like to do this. I do enjoy longer poems too, like The Hunting of the Snark, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, and The Lay of Leithian (a book long poem Tolkien did of one of his Silmarilian stories). I'll try read it over the holidays.
Thanks Cinnabar Wing, I'm not usually a poetry fan, but there are a few I like, apart from the Anglo-Saxon ones, which interest me more from an historical perspective about how they thought about the world.
I'm also a big fan of The Emporors Babe, by Bernadine Evaristo and Sekhment by Margaret Attwood..
Back from walking the kids and being made to scramble up muddy banks in the wood, so a sit down with a cuppa and reading it was just right.
I'm not religious, so I hope I don't offend anyone, but know it all from school. I found it really interesting that the poem centers around the tree, the cross and it's part in the crucifixion story. The melding of the differing views of it, from the gilded and jewel bedecked to the simple bloodied base wood of the tree. The idea and symbolism of the tree itself was an interesting take on a story people have heard many times and gives space for different ways of thinking about it I think.
I've heard it described as Catholics worship the dead Christ and Protestants the risen Christ?
There is an element of truth in that but Catholics don’t worship the dead Christ. The Catholic Easter ceremonies ‘bring to mind’ the passion, death and resurrection of Christ through the form of the liturgy over Holy Thursday (The Last Supper [followed by Jesus making his way to Gethsemane to pray all night until morning]), Good Friday, (Crucifiction), Holy Saturday (very little happens as Jesus isn’t yet risen), Easter Sunday (Resurrection). The liturgy takes the form of ‘being present’ to God so prayers and acclamations may be in the present tense, e.g., “He is risen!”, but it doesn’t mean that Catholics think it is actually happening in the present, other than in a spiritual sense because they know it happened 2000 odd years ago. There is certainly a big sense of being present to Jesus as he endures the lead up to the crucifixion and some people put themselves ‘in the scene’ as a way to live the experience by his side. The liturgy usually pauses during the moments after Jesus has died. The pause can help people contemplate the enormity of what has just happened. Staying with the dead body of Jesus on the cross and in the tomb is an important part of the liturgy, but it doesn’t mean that the Jesus who resurrected and ascended into heaven is disregarded.
Historically, there had been debate about whether salvation is attained by the ‘crucifixion’ or by the ‘resurrection’. Nowadays, both elements are considered essential in Christianity, although Protestants don’t usually spend as much time agonising over the crucifixion as Catholics. I’m not familiar with the Orthodox traditions.
I wonder if this could be part of the belief that after what is known in Norse as Ragnaroc, the gods and the worlds will rise again from the roots of the World Tree, Yygdrasil?
The social structure and belief systems that prevailed make your suggestion plausible. I might try to find out more about this tomorrow. In Christianity it is said that “all creation will be saved”. More recently, theologians are concerning themselves with what this means for the earth and its resources which would include trees. Although there is no suggestion that mainstream Christianity considers trees personified, poems and meditative works have alluded to them having some sort of animate quality.
The more I read the poem the more it grows on me.
I'm not sure they were superstitious if I'm honest, I think they honestly believed that there was more than one God, its very hard to give up something you've believed in or known all your life for a whole different world view and set of beliefs.
Thanks ArchaeC I was just about to write about the political angle as your post popped up.
Rome and its days of glory were well remembered and known in the early medieval, it would have been a familiar theme in the lives of those alive during the conversion period, if not in living memeory, then maybe a parent or grandparents living memory. So anything coming from Rome would have had a greater credence than otherwise, it was also the case that the Western Empire whilst no longer a political entity was very much a religious one and the advantages of belonging to it would have been better trade and being part of something both historical and reflecting a newer political reality. What isn't known is how deep Christianity ran in those newly baptised, for some it would have undoubtedly been very deep and genuine, whilst for others it would of been a skin deep convienence. I also wonder if the Christian clergy epsecially the Roman Catholic ones who were much more hierarchical and patriarchal, thought that by having a local King or headman baptised and all of his household, tennants etc they were gathering souls? A bit like some Mormon churches have been said to do, by going through public birth, death and marriage registers and baptising people without their knowlege sometimes retrospectively?
One of the problems is that there wasn't a unified church at the time, just as there isn't now, various herasies, such as Pelagianism were still being practiced, there was a huge difference between not just the structure of of the Catholic Church, but the Columban/Irish one and we don't really know anything about what the Romano-British who were at least nominally Christian believed.
I think the poem is beautiful, the way it sets out the suffereing and awareness of the tree, that wood isn't dead and as others have said that tree's will be saved too. I wonder if this could be part of the belief that after what is known in Norse as Ragnaroc, the gods and the worlds will rise again from the roots of the World Tree, Yygdrasil? We don't know a great deal about the Pagan beliefs of the A/S's, only that they were similar to those of Scandinavia.
I dont' really know how the Catholic church views the cross at easter or anyother time for that matter, only that the common symbol is Christ on the Cross, where as Protestants prefer an empty cross. I've heard it described as Catholics worship the dead Christ and Protestants the risen Christ?
I'm not sure they were superstitious if I'm honest, I think they honestly believed that there was more than one God, its very hard to give up something you've believed in or known all your life for a whole different world view and set of beliefs.
Thanks ArchaeC I was just about to write about the political angle as your post popped up.
Rome and its days of glory were well remembered and known in the early medieval, it would have been a familiar theme in the lives of those alive during the conversion period, if not in living memeory, then maybe a parent or grandparents living memory. So anything coming from Rome would have had a greater credence than otherwise, it was also the case that the Western Empire whilst no longer a political entity was very much a religious one and the advantages of belonging to it would have been better trade and being part of something both historical and reflecting a newer political reality. What isn't known is how deep Christianity ran in those newly baptised, for some it would have undoubtedly been very deep and genuine, whilst for others it would of been a skin deep convienence. I also wonder if the Christian clergy epsecially the Roman Catholic ones who were much more hierarchical and patriarchal, thought that by having a local King or headman baptised and all of his household, tennants etc they were gathering souls? A bit like some Mormon churches have been said to do, by going through public birth, death and marriage registers and baptising people without their knowlege sometimes retrospectively?
One of the problems is that there wasn't a unified church at the time, just as there isn't now, various herasies, such as Pelagianism were still being practiced, there was a huge difference between not just the structure of of the Catholic Church, but the Columban/Irish one and we don't really know anything about what the Romano-British who were at least nominally Christian believed.
I think the poem is beautiful, the way it sets out the suffereing and awareness of the tree, that wood isn't dead and as others have said that tree's will be saved too. I wonder if this could be part of the belief that after what is known in Norse as Ragnaroc, the gods and the worlds will rise again from the roots of the World Tree, Yygdrasil? We don't know a great deal about the Pagan beliefs of the A/S's, only that they were similar to those of Scandinavia.
I dont' really know how the Catholic church views the cross at easter or anyother time for that matter, only that the common symbol is Christ on the Cross, where as Protestants prefer an empty cross. I've heard it described as Catholics worship the dead Christ and Protestants the risen Christ?
I've heard it described as Catholics worship the dead Christ and Protestants the risen Christ?
There is an element of truth in that but Catholics don’t worship the dead Christ. The Catholic Easter ceremonies ‘bring to mind’ the passion, death and resurrection of Christ through the form of the liturgy over Holy Thursday (The Last Supper [followed by Jesus making his way to Gethsemane to pray all night until morning]), Good Friday, (Crucifiction), Holy Saturday (very little happens as Jesus isn’t yet risen), Easter Sunday (Resurrection). The liturgy takes the form of ‘being present’ to God so prayers and acclamations may be in the present tense, e.g., “He is risen!”, but it doesn’t mean that Catholics think it is actually happening in the present, other than in a spiritual sense because they know it happened 2000 odd years ago. There is certainly a big sense of being present to Jesus as he endures the lead up to the crucifixion and some people put themselves ‘in the scene’ as a way to live the experience by his side. The liturgy usually pauses during the moments after Jesus has died. The pause can help people contemplate the enormity of what has just happened. Staying with the dead body of Jesus on the cross and in the tomb is an important part of the liturgy, but it doesn’t mean that the Jesus who resurrected and ascended into heaven is disregarded.
Historically, there had been debate about whether salvation is attained by the ‘crucifixion’ or by the ‘resurrection’. Nowadays, both elements are considered essential in Christianity, although Protestants don’t usually spend as much time agonising over the crucifixion as Catholics. I’m not familiar with the Orthodox traditions.
I wonder if this could be part of the belief that after what is known in Norse as Ragnaroc, the gods and the worlds will rise again from the roots of the World Tree, Yygdrasil?
The social structure and belief systems that prevailed make your suggestion plausible. I might try to find out more about this tomorrow. In Christianity it is said that “all creation will be saved”. More recently, theologians are concerning themselves with what this means for the earth and its resources which would include trees. Although there is no suggestion that mainstream Christianity considers trees personified, poems and meditative works have alluded to them having some sort of animate quality.
The more I read the poem the more it grows on me.
