Pathologising

B said:

When I was younger I had 'anxiety' put on my medical records and I was very surprised as I thought everyone got anxious, although I'd been given meds to deal with it.

I was also sure that everyone gets anxious,  they are just masters in masking and they manage to hide it effortlessly. Then I heard that im too anxious and I should stop and just relax. But had no idea how.

You're absolutely right, they do go hand in hand, it's sad that often those who shout the loudest about human rights rarely accept the responsibilities that go with having rights. Having human rights isn't the same as having everything your own way.

I wonder if one of the ways forward could be to identify the areas where ND's are underrepresented and work on what need to happen to get better representation? I wouldn't want to go down the route of having all ND shortlists for jobs or anything like that, whilst I understand why this has happened in other areas,particularly in terms of female representation, I think it leads to insecurity and more back lash. If I get a job, I want to know that I'm there by merit and not a tick box exercise.

What areas do you feel we're underrepresented in? I'd guess politics, but it would seem that everyone who's not a legal professional is underrepresented. I would of thought law could appeal to ND's who like rule following, if not criminal law then conveyancing, family courts and comercial.

Point taken - however I do think there is such a thing as good and bad.  Somewhere to base this on?  Everyone has human rights and moral behaviour needs to reflect these.

I think that could get into some murky waters, morals mean different things to different people, to some its beating children, going to church on sunday and being an utter b'stard the rest of the week. To some morality is about sex and what consenting adults do that isn't missionary position and hetrosexual, it's about keeping young people in ignarance about thier bodies. I goes with the warped idea of justice that goes, indulgence for me and punishment for everybody else.

I'm not disagreeing with you about having and using a moral compass or the need for it, but many people's compass, like Cpt Jack Sparrows always point to what they want, rum usually.

I would reply that their behaviour was an example of why humanity needs a moral reboot and all the examples given can be tackled when there is a moral will to.  Where the extra money could come from?  The profits of immoral people.

We probably are too honest for most people, I must admit that being told I'm to honest confuses me a bit, why would people prefer to live a lie? I think there are ways of expaining things that are honest but not nasty and frightening that people could accept, nor to simplistic either. I think the appeal of much populism, is because of the simplistic answers given to very complex issues. Personally I think most people can see the choices that have to be made between how much we spend and how much we tax for example, not everyone will get it of course, just like many people who voted for brexit couldn't believe that we still had "foreigners" here the day after the vote.

I think possibly another issue with high functioning and successful ND people is that we're not noted for our abilities to communicate well. Just imagine you're on something like Question Time and you've got some rightwing oik questioning why you're there, why ND is a problem when you're sat on the panal on national tv saying that more money needs to be spent on diversity when we've got a crumbling NHS and our military needs beefing up because of the threat from Russia and we pay to much tax? How will you counter this sort of barrage in a short space of time?

too honest

I like Ents :-)  TheCatWoman 

B said:

In the 20th century, up to a certain point, if women behaved outside society's norms they could be called 'hysterical' or 'neurotic'.

This is me in my family till this very day. I'm always the problem and nobody in my family believes me or understands me

B said:

I think that some of these 'conditions/disorders' could be used by those in power to control society: ie if you don't think, behave, etc as 'we' do then there is something wrong with you.

This is very true.

I would phrase it more as "if you are not like us then you are the problem". Look at the USA for a perfect example of how this is playing out.

Just to clarify my thoughts a little: I don't think that all diagnoses are 'labels' and I know that they can be very positive indeed.

In the 20th century, up to a certain point, if women behaved outside society's norms they could be called 'hysterical' or 'neurotic'.

They could also be imprisoned in 'mental asylums'.

I think that some of these 'conditions/disorders' could be used by those in power to control society: ie if you don't think, behave, etc as 'we' do then there is something wrong with you.

It's definitely not all mental health/developmental etc 'disorders' I'm talking about here, but mainly the ones I keep learning about this century (and some that have thankfully fallen from common use from the last).

Unfortunately not, I've just seen to many things twisted by bullies. I do agree that it would be good if those in good well paid jobs spoke out more, people need to see that being ND isn't some kind of life sentence of misery, I think as well as being a lot of us in STEM subjects there are a of us in the artistic and creative industries too.

Why aren't we running the world?

"Sorry if that seems really cynical" .....? any better ideas then TheCatWoman ?

If all those with ND in STEM professions start raising ND as an issue, then will they get called "egg heads" and by extension the rest of us too? I can just see this sort of thing in the tabloid press and in certain political circles being used to denigrate, marginalise and as an excuse to not give us any help or support, because we dont' need it as we'd all be in well paid jobs? We could replace the EU as a whipping post, everytime some piece of tech goes wrong or dosent work as well as some random has decided it should, it will be our fault again and there will be moves to deny us these jobs.

Sorry if that seems really cynical, and I do agree that those with positions of influence could do more to raise awareness, I think I've just seen to many good ideas and things, get twisted out of all proportion and be factually wrong, because it's a slow news day or the main story is one they don't want to run as it makes their political masters look like fools, they will find one of their whipping posts and print rubbish, that will then become the main news stories on social media and tv.

The other trees will know one of their fellows has fallen, but I supose they don't count, only humans do?

Worry is a normal part of being a human. But anxiety that takes over thoughts and affects your ability to function in life is not. If medication is needed then it's unlikely to be a normal level of worry.

I really dislike the term label. Diagnoses shouldn't be thought of as labels. You wouldn't tell someone with asthma that they didn't need a label. They do - it keeps them alive. People with mental health and neurodivergent conditions deserve to have their needs met and reasonable adjustments made. This isn't about labelling people, or putting them in boxes. It allows support (yes I'm aware there is still a long way to go for effective support but that is a different discussion).

I also strongly believe people are entitled to understand themselves and a diagnosis can help them with that. Calling it a label makes it sound negative and for me I think it adds to the stigma of neurodivergency and mental health conditions.

Recognition? I suspect this would involve some form of autistic and neurodiverse union and solidarity and collective action.  Research indicates that individuals with autistic traits are over-represented in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) professions compared to the general population.  These fields are all (I hate to use the term but you know what I mean - ) "wealth generating".  I would suggest that those autistic people with positions of power in these areas might collectively exercise it in such a fashion to leverage neurotypical society to a socially more equitable and globally safer and healthier fashion.

Sympathy - not sure that I as an autistic person want that because I am autistic.  The history of modern human society is based on being "one up" on another person/nation with occasional lapses into recognition that we're all in this together.  All people need to sympathise more in my opinion.

Phased said:

How big a tree fall has to take place before society pays attention to it?

This will depend greatly on who it falls on (ie are they important enough, sufficiently appealing to peoples sympathetic nature etc) and who it inconveniences.

If lots of quiet, unobtrusive autists were to start passing by their own hand then it may make a brief news article but only once somebody important or famous does it will the media make a fuss.

Even then, will it motivate the vast majority who are not affected to take any sort of action? I doubt it.

It will have to impact enough people (or some important people) in some tangible way for action to be taken.

The impact we seem to be having is through being a drain on the benefits system and I don't think this is seen as a positive thing. 

I'm open to ideas on how to raise out profile in a way that will win us some sympathy or recognition of deserving more.

There is a Zen Koan that asks "if a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, does it make a noise?"

So,

I'll answer that from what might be a quantum physics, a philosophical, a political and a personal (late diagnosed autistic) perspective.

Unless something is measured it doesn't exist - but that doesn't stop a tree falling on someone's head from causing severe injury!

The need to define these things has come about because individuals in society are experiencing problems that society is not resolving.

Patterns can be seen to be emerging.

How big a tree fall has to take place before society pays attention to it?

Daydreaming was my favourite hobby! I didn’t think it was a problem…