Random verbal abuse in the street

I think many older people are habituated to unwanted commentary, they were probably told not to make a fuss and make exceptions for men. 

I was once asked by a builder why so many women with small children hand around building sites, "looking at the men", and that they shouldn't complain when they're noticed back. He was most put out when I told him that it's not the women who want to stand and watch a building site, but thier small children who have screaming fits if they're not allowed to watch the diggers and other big machinery.

TheCatWoman said:

its got worse rather than better over the years, or maybe women are less willing to put up with it and rightly so.

I agree that women have gotten better at calling out this behaviour over the years.

Older generations can be part of the problem though - I had a heated arguement with my mother recently over how she responded when one of her grandchildren was telling her about being catcalled in the street.

Her response is "well men will be men". I asked her how she felt her granddaughter felt about the unwanted attention and she was quite flippant about "she probably enjoyed the attention" and I had a hard time keeping it civil while trying to explain it is unacceptable.

I also recall one of my teenage girlfriends used to walk past building sites and seemed to enjoy the attention of builders and was quite proud when she got whistled or catcalled at.

This would be in the erly 80s when she was 16.

I'm not making a point by the way, just noting that some women are contributing to the problem, at least from the older generations. For what it's worth I'm a supporter of feminism in principle and agree with you that this sort of behaviour is unacceptable.

Going on the article its got worse rather than better over the years, or maybe women are less willing to put up with it and rightly so. 

I wondered what the arrests were for, obviously mentioned were theft. So many men seem to feel entitled to grab handfulls of women, rub up against us on public transport or whatever. It dosen't stop as you get older either, my Mum was assaulted in Lidl's check out, she was 85, I saw this bloke looking like he was trying to push past her and she was guddling about in the handbag, bobbing up and down, then she swung round sharply with her elbows and said sorry I didn't know you were so close to the bloke behind her, he was about the same age as her. She told me that he's rubbed himself up against her and that she'd been trampling on his feet and getting her elbows into a position to give him a sharp jab, which she did. I was appalled that someone did this to her, that even at her age your not safe, impressed that she dealt with it so well, she said she's gained lots of practice over the years and trampling on a mans feet was easier when she was able to wear stiletto heeled shoes.

Sorry, but nope. 

I was on the receiving end of this aggressive rubbish - very early one weekend morning recently - in a, so-called, "nice" small rural neighbourhood.

You can present as "unattractive" as is possible, be well past your "sell by date", just going about your own business, and yet, still, some entitled idiot will loose off their potty-mouth / zero checked emotions / unacceptable behaviour ...all because you happen to be female.

Well, that particular (old enough to know better) idiot really made an error of judgement - as what they failed to appreciate was ... unknown to them: I have actually known their Dad for about 10 years (that will make for an "interesting" next catch up chitchat - as we have always been on cordial terms).   

The emboldened idiot assumed they were "anonymous".

Incorrect.

Maybe I live in a more civilised place or I don't go out much, but I don't see this. It used to common when I was young in London. I'd assumed, it seems erroneously, that things had moved on a bit. Maybe not.

I read that article, what it brings to mind is how after someone yells at me, I will then be slightly on edge for the next few days on the same route. For the person yelling I guess it is a moment but for the person they hurl it towards it sticks. 

I've developed a tough exterior over the years but beneath what others see I'm still me and take things too much to heart. That has it's positives too though as it means I still expect the best from people and mostly I'm right to do so.

There's a good article in today's Guardian about how Surryey police have sent officers undercover as joggers at rush hour to see how much harassment there is of women and girls from random men, there were 16 arrests and numerous talking toos.

DNE. For God's sake, it's overtime, honey. Too late for this bs. MODERATORS, you beautiful people.

Could be due to competition for resources.

If you roam you are not dependent on any particular area. But once settled you need to defend your area as you can't move.

Additionally, you now have more stuff, due to not having to carry it around. You have a surplus of food due to efficiency and splitting up roles. And it is all in a known place.

Size also allows you to have a warrior caste who can specialise in fighting.

Once you have groups larger than 1 or 2 families, you have hierarchies and status. I am sure the desire for status is not a new thing. 

I suppose you might also be after slaves or additional women for babies.

When in small family groups, fighting would be limited as the costs of getting injured are higher. Your family may fail. Also you don't have much time for fighting when subsistence living.

TheCatWoman said:

Is this the begining of patriarchy too?

I think this would predate the settlements situation. "In the beginning" so to speak it was the survival of the fittest where the strongest would be able to dominate and I suspect in early settlements there would be a lot of this mindset still in existance.

It probably took thousands of years of conditioning to remove this instincual drive on the whole, but I doubt the instinctual drive has actually left.

These days the "stong" are largely those in positions of power. This is still primarily male but it seems many women who have achieved positions of power are quite willing to play the same game which indicates that it is not solely a patriarchy issue. 

I havw been watching "Humans" on BBC2, its about the development of our species, last night it was about when we first started living in large groups and creating towns and cities farmed and grew crops rather than lived as nomadic hunter gatherers. It seems that this was when violence first became a problem, lots of skeletons have been found with sharp or blunt force trauma injuries especially to the head, it also seems to be when we started to have socal stratification.

So I'm not sure where physchology fits with this, because it would seem to be a stress response to living on top of each other. Is this the begining of patriarchy too? In this situation, did men look for the easiest targets, women?

No Iain, I don't objectify people in the way you describe, I do make a brief assessment of whether they're likely to a danger to me and either avoid them or remember what Granny Weatherwax said 'there are lots of dangerous things out there and I'm one of them'.

When I was talking about objectifying people I was speaking in more of a sexual context, like male dance troops/strippers.

One fo the things I've learnt since being on here where people often don't identify their gender, is how great it is only relating to someone as a person. It reminds me of being on silent retreat where you just accepted knowing little about someone from the outside, not being able to hear how they speak, their accent etc meant we got to know the inner person first, quite the reverse of normal social interactions.

I guess you could say I Woke up from making such judgements, I realised how meaningless they actually are. I now approach people much more honestly and openly, giving up our learned preconceptions of how people are from thier clothes, hair colour, their car, they way they speak or their job, is truely enlightening.

I'm sorry this isn't the answer you were hoping for, I leant far more from my spiritual teachers than I did from my counselling ones and thats not to denigrate anyone. Different but equally beneficial to me.

TheCatWoman said:

I'n my experience alcohol isn't needed for me to start shouting at me in the street or making comments, it's just something they feel entitled to do.

Have you ever dug into this subject to see why people behave differently in groups than induvidually? It is quite fascinating and there are some ways to use headology against those people causing problems if you choose to respond.

A good starter article on the subject is:

https://www.waldenu.edu/online-masters-programs/ms-in-psychology/resource/why-do-people-act-differently-in-groups-than-they-do-alone

TheCatWoman said:

I don't want to be objectified and I don't objectify others

This is a subject I'm surious about. When you see someone you have not met before and there is no reasonable chance you will interact with them, are they not simply an object of unknown qualities?

This doesn't mean you have to reduce them to the most basic of appearances but in the absence of other information then appearances is all you can work with when forming an opinion of them - you'll never get more info.

Humans are very juedgemental by nature so it seems obvious that they will typically judge such a person on the most obvious characteristics and form an opinion based on these - pink hair probably means LGBT+ etc.

Add in the pressure of group dynamics and the alcohol induced need to be the funniest in the group and you get people making comments that they probably never would in normal life. I have had this in London when coming home from working late in the office where groups of girls shout "oi baldie" to me. Oddly enough blokes didn't do this so it may be a corruption of the gender roles where catcalling attractive and insulting less attractive opposite sex is seen as fun.

I haven't studied this so hopefully your counselling experience can help me understand it.

That sort of group behaviour is something I don't indulge in, I don't want to be objectified and I don't objectify others, I used to hate all the Chippendales stuff so many women loved, it actually revolted me. 

I'n my experience alcohol isn't needed for me to start shouting at me in the street or making comments, it's just something they feel entitled to do.

Yes, usually it is I think - though I have had a couple of individuals follow me down the street yelling slurs and threats too - every time they are very drunk.

TheCatWoman said:

I'm a tall woman, that's often made me target, there seems to be a certain section of older men who take delight in calling me Sir, I give them a pitying look, as it's obvious that I'm female and they're the ones with the problem.

I think a lot of people seem to think they are funny when it's a rare skill to be witty and make people laugh. When people use humour as a weapon it can be hurtful but very infrequently makes anybody genuinely laugh making it ultimately pointless and thus the person saying it insignificant too. 

I suppose the skill that would be useful for me to perfect is to realise that in the moment of this kind of interaction. 

Thanks for your comment, it helps me to make sense of things to hear others experiences.

I suspect it's just appearance really, I'm pretty confident so the body language is unlikely. I suppose it's just standing out in the UK leads to some horrible comments and a few nice ones.

On the positive side some people are lovely about my appearance, mostly during the day when less inebriated, haha!

Thanks for this, some good tips and resources. 

TheCatWoman said:

I think there are a certain group of men who feel it's their right to comment on any woman, regardlsss of how they look or the time of day. 

This is true, and after some drinking they are much less likely to be inhibited in their commenting. I think this stems from their subconcious drive to be seen a top dog, the one able to project their intent on whoever they want for all competitors to see and tremble before their power.

It is visible in most workplaces too with pecking orders forming over time and people using subtler ways of exerting their authority.

It isn't just a male thing though. I've had plenty of experiences over the years of going into mostly women office environments when sorting IT issues and had someone (high in the pecking order) make loud comments about me for all to hear ("fresh meat for the grinder" being the worst but often things like "what have we here girls, a new plaything?").

These seem to have the intent of making me feel intimidated and recognise their authority and when their comments were met with a blush or stammering then they seemed to puff up with the success.

It would be great if it didn't happen but is seems very much part of some groups human nature.

I think there are a certain group of men who feel it's their right to comment on any woman, regardlsss of how they look or the time of day. 

I was thinking about starting a thread about being shouted at in the street by random male strangers, I wondered if it was an age thing, a town thing, are there some places where you're more likely to be shouted at?

I think multi-coloured hair is quite common, as well as tattoos and clothing choices often denoting an affinity for a cultural sub group.

I'm a tall woman, that's often made me target, there seems to be a certain section of older men who take delight in calling me Sir, I give them a pitying look, as it's obvious that I'm female and they're the ones with the problem.

I've been told to 'cheer up love as it may never happen', it seems that some men believe that a womans role is to be decorative and pleasing to the male eye.

I think the worst one was angrily muttered at my daughter and i, we were walking into town one saturday morning, arm and arm, enjoying ourselves, she was about 15 at the time and me in my mid thirties and out of nowhere this bloke walking in the opposite direction along the road, say's 'why don't you put her down, you old ***' we rounded on him and gave him a piece of our minds and he staggered off appologising. Where does this sort of thing come from? What makes men feel this is OK?

I've had various sexual comments shouted at me over the years, comments on my breast size, skirt length, foot size, clothing choice.

I've even had some bloke come up behind me and try walking along behind me holing my bum cheek, I punched him in the nose and made it bleed, much to the ammusement of his friends.

When I was growing up being shouted at in the street etc were fairly normal, you just dealt with it, developed a good line in come backs, defended yourself physically when needed or you hid away and didn't go out without an escourt of a least a group of friends or a man.