relative morality and the QuALY

So say hypothetically a demon appears in the prime ministers room one night and says:

Ahah prime minister. You must make a choice. Tomorrow I'm going to kill 50000 70 year olds. However if you press this red button I'm going to kill one 40 year old a day for 40 years. What will you do?

Well. You might think one person a day isn't very much. In the grand scheme of things tomorrow no one will notice. I mean yes the persons family will notice but not the press and the NHS and everyone. We won't have to worry about burying 50000 bodies all at once. It'd be chaos. If you do the maths maybe you figure out 40 years for 365.25 days (gota account for those leap years) thats 14690 deaths. Thats a lot fewer deaths than the 50000. However the 70 year olds have on average 10 years left to live (80 years is an average life expectancy). The 40 year olds have roughly 40 years to live. If you compare the number of years of life to live you loose 500000 years of life doing nothing. Pressing the red button you loose 587600 years of life just lost over a longer period of time.

The mathematically right decision is to let the 50000 70 year olds die all at once. But could you imagine any politician doing that? Knowing the uproar that would be in the press tomorrow. Everyone asking him why he didn't do something? Why they are piling up bodies in hospital carparks and talking of mass graves.

Maybe you don't think it's fair. If you value a life by the years some one had left doesn't that mean old peoples lives are worth less? But if you had an otherwise healthy 16 year old and 60 year old both needing the same transplant heart which one would you give it to? In the NHS it'd be the 16 year old.

This is the kind of calculation that needs to be done when you respond to a pandemic. You balance horrendous short term effects against long term ones that seem small over the short term but may end up being worse over the long term. And no one knows for sure whether they got it right. Because no politician wants to commission the research that might tell him that he has to tell the nation its in the national interest to let a lot of people die when action could prevent it.

It gets even worse when you get to the quality adjusted life year. If a life year is a measure of life length the QuALY is a measure of quality of life and time. 1 QuALY = one year of life in perfect health. The notion being that if you are so sick, maybe locked in with nothing but eye movement, or maybe you're in horrendous constant pain, maybe one more year of life means nothing to you. Maybe you'd rather die anyway. QuALYs is the NHSs way of trying to recon for the idea that a year of life in health might be worth more than 2 in bad health. Such choices do exist in medicine. Maybe you're treating for cancer and you say I can give you a month with out treatment or 6 with chemotherapy and transplants but you'll spend most of that 6 months in hospital feeling ill. People need to make a choice about what that extra 5 months is worth. And this is fairly simple ethically when it's a personal choice. But when it's a choice made for a group of people, say which drugs the NHS will or won't buy. Or will or won't we lock down, well its a lot harder isn't it.

The way QuALYs are calculated in practice is highly dubious. They go and ask people hypothetical questions like the one I mentioned above:

Press this button and you get AIDS but I extend your life by 10 years. Press the other button and I grow your leg back but your life is shorter 10 years.

Thing is it's quite hard to ask people with actual experience of a condition how many years they'd give up to avoid a rare condition. So a lot of the time they're asking people who've no experience of the condition they're being asked to contemplate about having it in exchange for more life. Which way you ask the question. Whether you ask a young or old person, some one with or without children, it all makes a difference. The QuALY isn't a great unit of measurement. But it's indispensable for the number crunchers in government.

The logic of government used to be that for most things a QuALY was worth 60000£ So say you want a handrail put up by a dangerous cliff. Well if you would save one person with one QuALY of life left fall to the death and the hand rail costs less than 60000£ its probably a good deal. Not for the NHS though if you want the NHS to spend money on you it's 15000£ per QuALY. Why? Because they recon if they gave the NHS 15000£ extra they could save about one QuALY of life with it. So anything that comes out of the NHS budget has a higher bar to pass, 4 times higher, than getting the government to pay for say traffic calming measures.

Arguably the QuALY system devalues the lives of disabled people based on the opinions about disability of people who are themselves often not disabled. With lockdown people like to talk about protecting the vulnerable of society but those with mental health issues or complex support needs are some of the most vulnerable people in society and lockdown is extremely bad for them. You could make the argument that by locking down you are sacrificing one set of vulnerable people (the mentally fragile, those with special / complex needs, those already isolated or who are susceptible to substance abuse or at risk of DV) for the sake of another set of vulnerable people, (the elderly and immune-compromised). Of course the elderly are a big voting block which other vulnerable sections of society are often not.

People on this forum seem to think lockdown was this simple black and white choice and any one who opposes covid restrictions is ignorant. It's much more nuanced. The real issue we should be worried about is the use of the QuALY in government health economics. Because the QuALY they put on autism is sure as hell not derived from the input of autistic people like you and me.

Parents
  • This is an interesting and disturbing subject. I agree with some of you have written and disagree with some, some I am undecided on.

    The first lockdown was not just about protecting the vulnerable but to put brakes on as hospitals were being overwhelmed and staff were dying due to immense viral load and inadequate protection. But I reckon some of the rules were wrong. I think we could have done with a somewhat less locked down lockdown, ie not closing cancer treatments etc!

    Whether we needed the other lockdowns is more debatable. But i think we ought to have kept more protections once lockdown was eased, and that we ought to still be encouraging if not mandating that people still wear masks and keep their distance etc. at least in crowded areas with lots of mixing ie public transport. It would be better for public health if spread was reduced, as well as for the physically vulnerable.

    Lockdown was not universally bad for mental health. Some of us liked the peace and quiet and not having to interact socially as much, and people not getting too close to us and being able to work from home! Of course there were negatives too and I am not belittling those, such as domestic violence.

    As for QuALYs yes those are dangerous and some of what you wrote was shocking! I knew some but not all and not the figures you gave. I can't help thinking that if your hypothetical pm had that button then if it would never become public and apart from the logistics of burying so many bodies at once they would be glad of a solution to the pension crisis and would choose to remove so many non-wage-earners! I hadn't thought of the voting angle.

    As a physically disabled and unable to work autistic, I guess i have fewer QuALYs than someone else my age, which i find deeply disturbing. As you say, who are they to put a financial value on my life? I would however say that someone who had children ought to have a higher value put on their life than mine.

    I have had to make a decision about my own quality of life regarding covid. As I regard myself as being at much higher risk of long covid than an average person, and that it would have a worse effect on me if I got it as I already have so little energy and do not need any additional pain, I still live in self-imposed lockdown. We go out cycling and meet friends outside but not inside and buy everything online. We only go inside for essential medical things like blood tests and the dentist. We even still wash the food shopping! I hate this but I would hate worse what might happen if i got long covid, because it would be similar to what I lived through once already.

    I was asked by a 30 year old when I refused to come out of the first lockdown how long I would do it for, he seemed to assume I would not be prepared to live like that for even one year let alone 3 or more. But when I was 20 I had freshers flu at uni which wiped me out. They thought it was post-viral fatigue as I struggled to stay awake at all and had painful joints, it took a year before i was told I had a crippling old persons' disease and it felt like my life was over. And the 30 years of my adult life since then have been a mixed bag. If I could have lived in a lockdown for 3 years or 5 years back then to not get arthritis then I would have chosen that! So yes now i will choose that rather than risk being even more crippled than I am now.

    But that is my choice and I am not imposing it on anyone else. My husband has agreed to it, and we do periodically rediscuss it to see if we are still willing to choose living this way. I feel bad for him, but if he could not cope with it I would take the risk for him. Of course he is the one who would have to do my bedpans if i was bedridden, haha! So that does influence his choice! But my life is not so bad even in my own lockdown. I still get to cycle and to learn languages online and I have friends and family. But if the covid risk was a simple case of x% chance I might die a quick and painless death then I would be more inclined to take that chance!

    Public health decisions are different from personal health decisions. A 1% increased risk of death is something an individual might choose to take if the cost/benefit analysis worked out. But over a population that is a lot of people dying. But I feel the govt do not take into account other factors, like mental health on the one hand or like long covid on the other. Plus the economy - they don't like things which damage that.

    It is all very nuanced and complicated. But I do not feel that the govt decisions have universally benefitted the old over the mentally unwell. I don't actually think they care about either group. Both are generally expensive and don't contribute much unless they are well off.

    Life length and quality are not the only factors either. I would take a hit to either if the other part of the equation was help/harm to others. If I had 10 years less AND lost a leg but doing that helped 100 people I pick that but if I had 10 years more and that in perfect health but the price was 100 people suffering I would not pick that. Not that such a point necessarily matters for QuALY calculations, but I just felt the need to say it. Although it does in a way, because people do generally care about others, but maybe more about themselves.

    I hope I made some sense and didn't wander too far off topic! I don't want to spend five hours editing it though so I shall just post!

Reply
  • This is an interesting and disturbing subject. I agree with some of you have written and disagree with some, some I am undecided on.

    The first lockdown was not just about protecting the vulnerable but to put brakes on as hospitals were being overwhelmed and staff were dying due to immense viral load and inadequate protection. But I reckon some of the rules were wrong. I think we could have done with a somewhat less locked down lockdown, ie not closing cancer treatments etc!

    Whether we needed the other lockdowns is more debatable. But i think we ought to have kept more protections once lockdown was eased, and that we ought to still be encouraging if not mandating that people still wear masks and keep their distance etc. at least in crowded areas with lots of mixing ie public transport. It would be better for public health if spread was reduced, as well as for the physically vulnerable.

    Lockdown was not universally bad for mental health. Some of us liked the peace and quiet and not having to interact socially as much, and people not getting too close to us and being able to work from home! Of course there were negatives too and I am not belittling those, such as domestic violence.

    As for QuALYs yes those are dangerous and some of what you wrote was shocking! I knew some but not all and not the figures you gave. I can't help thinking that if your hypothetical pm had that button then if it would never become public and apart from the logistics of burying so many bodies at once they would be glad of a solution to the pension crisis and would choose to remove so many non-wage-earners! I hadn't thought of the voting angle.

    As a physically disabled and unable to work autistic, I guess i have fewer QuALYs than someone else my age, which i find deeply disturbing. As you say, who are they to put a financial value on my life? I would however say that someone who had children ought to have a higher value put on their life than mine.

    I have had to make a decision about my own quality of life regarding covid. As I regard myself as being at much higher risk of long covid than an average person, and that it would have a worse effect on me if I got it as I already have so little energy and do not need any additional pain, I still live in self-imposed lockdown. We go out cycling and meet friends outside but not inside and buy everything online. We only go inside for essential medical things like blood tests and the dentist. We even still wash the food shopping! I hate this but I would hate worse what might happen if i got long covid, because it would be similar to what I lived through once already.

    I was asked by a 30 year old when I refused to come out of the first lockdown how long I would do it for, he seemed to assume I would not be prepared to live like that for even one year let alone 3 or more. But when I was 20 I had freshers flu at uni which wiped me out. They thought it was post-viral fatigue as I struggled to stay awake at all and had painful joints, it took a year before i was told I had a crippling old persons' disease and it felt like my life was over. And the 30 years of my adult life since then have been a mixed bag. If I could have lived in a lockdown for 3 years or 5 years back then to not get arthritis then I would have chosen that! So yes now i will choose that rather than risk being even more crippled than I am now.

    But that is my choice and I am not imposing it on anyone else. My husband has agreed to it, and we do periodically rediscuss it to see if we are still willing to choose living this way. I feel bad for him, but if he could not cope with it I would take the risk for him. Of course he is the one who would have to do my bedpans if i was bedridden, haha! So that does influence his choice! But my life is not so bad even in my own lockdown. I still get to cycle and to learn languages online and I have friends and family. But if the covid risk was a simple case of x% chance I might die a quick and painless death then I would be more inclined to take that chance!

    Public health decisions are different from personal health decisions. A 1% increased risk of death is something an individual might choose to take if the cost/benefit analysis worked out. But over a population that is a lot of people dying. But I feel the govt do not take into account other factors, like mental health on the one hand or like long covid on the other. Plus the economy - they don't like things which damage that.

    It is all very nuanced and complicated. But I do not feel that the govt decisions have universally benefitted the old over the mentally unwell. I don't actually think they care about either group. Both are generally expensive and don't contribute much unless they are well off.

    Life length and quality are not the only factors either. I would take a hit to either if the other part of the equation was help/harm to others. If I had 10 years less AND lost a leg but doing that helped 100 people I pick that but if I had 10 years more and that in perfect health but the price was 100 people suffering I would not pick that. Not that such a point necessarily matters for QuALY calculations, but I just felt the need to say it. Although it does in a way, because people do generally care about others, but maybe more about themselves.

    I hope I made some sense and didn't wander too far off topic! I don't want to spend five hours editing it though so I shall just post!

Children
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