How do neurologically typical people feel & experience life?

That's why it's considered a spectrum... and why I prefer to self-define as Neuro-atypical vs. the majority who are Neuro-typical.

ASD is a diagnostic label that basically takes the negative impacts of being 'atypical' and if they affect a person to a certain degree and in pre-defined areas says "You're autistic".

It's not helped by the fact that with great effort a lot of us can 'pass' as NT, for a while at least...

Thanks OP - I thought someone would have done it :-)

"A field guide to Earthlings"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Field-Guide-Earthlings-autistic-neurotypical/dp/0615426190/ref=asc_df_0615426190/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=255746763591&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2066416341720373278&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007259&hvtargid=pla-684728271312&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

Actually since I saw your comment, I was thinking about the eye contact thing, because as much as I can see, that really doesn't make sense other than NT people. I wanted to explain why we do it, beside the "it just feels right" thing what's anything but helpful.

So what I realized about the eye contact: as I wrote before, I think a lot of NT people don't really pay attention to it and body language in general unless they find it strange.

I think eye contact became paired to positive traits in a conversation. Like when you look someone's eyes when they talk, it reassures them that you're listening. When you can "stand someone's stare", they usually say that you're a brave person. While looking away in a conversation has been associated with "lying".

I know that autistic people are usually listening even when they do something else, but for some reason NT people make it about the "respect" you give to someone if you stop whatever you're doing and you just pay attention to the person speaking to you. And to make it clear that you pay your whole attention to someone, you're making eye contact.

And there's the "bonding" part, what I'm done with Christmas Cards talks about.

I hope I helped a little.

I've never found eye contact painful, but I don't really know how you're supposed to do it / how much is enough. I guess I don't get anything out of it (and don't really understand why it's OK to basically stare at someone) so I always worry about doing it wrong. I do get the impression that you're supposed to do it for longer than I find comfortable, so i go for the good old "look at the mouth instead of the eyes and they'll never know" trick and that seems to work.

I never get tired of looking into my dog's big brown eyes on the other hand, but then a dog will look away and not stare at you for ages.

My better half doesn't do long eye contact either, despite being NT (as far as we know) but in his case it's more that he's quite shy so it makes him uncomfortable.

Bagpuss7 said:

At best, it's "ooh wow go me I'm making eye contact"

By the way, I've certainly experienced this :-)

Thank you :-). I think this thread has generated some material that gets me thinking about writing "A guide to NT experience for autistic people" or something (I need to check first if that has already been done).

I'm really starting to understand the weight of what "Pervasive" means in "Pervasive developmental disorder", and wanting to put some thought into how our personalities grow in and around the branches of the autistic tree at the heart of us. (I used this analogy once before when I saw the leaves of my tree as my mask, which were incinerated in my burnout leaving the bare trunk of autism exposed).

Perhaps this lays behind why I'm intrigued to find out how it "feels" to be typical, i.e. in order to add even more understanding to my own differences by providing a contrasting picture.

Like you, I've also suffered suicidal thoughts, basically because the effort & pain of life seems to outweigh the pleasure.

I stepped down from a minor leadership position shortly after my burnout, and part of what I couldn't cope with was the unending sequence of obligations around events and my behaviours (always on show, acting, self monitoring) and set-piece "kick off meetings" and the like. Like you say, you can't just "not go" even if you're not feeling it, and it comes attached to obligations to "do" lunch and dinner and be convivial in the bar later.

Well I found it helpful anyway.  It's not just about enjoy/ not enjoy but the potentially serious escalations around not enjoying.

As I have experienced, some of these things drive me to have suicidal thoughts because I am not good at experiencing the effects and the overwhelming feelings.  They are not just preferences and I'm not good at avoiding them either, because the subtleties of handling these preferences are not there. So, taking a social situation , i can spend days beforehand dreading it, the occasion itself in a peak of adrenaline, the day or two after recovering and regretting, and it can feel not just uncomfortable but devastating.  I have been off this forum for a week because I have felt suicidal in the days before and after the office christmas party, but if I had just not gone I would have felt like a coward because I'm a senior person in the office who is expected to chip in towards the bar tab. 

This last weekend I had a meltdown in a shoe shop (yes I'm a 52 year old well educated lady, that was not a moment of glory).  I just couldn't deal with a situation that started with a small conversation.  Afterwards I spent the rest of the weekend recovering. 

Personally I have a belief that there is no clear-cut line between NT and ASD and that different traits overlap

I tend to think of NT people as sailing through life in a more natural flow but not neccessarily getting anywhere efficiently

On the contrast I imagine a typical person with ASD as being more introverted meaning social situations are a bigger challenge as well as overthinking everything trying to be as efficient as possible when in reality it might just be minor irrelevant issues causing more stress than they deserve

I'm glad to hear that!

Well, it depends. Some NTs usually can see the logical side really well, but if they are involved, then sometimes it's hard to just think logically. But with enough communication and respect from both sides, I think we can make up for thinking differently.

Thanks kassandra ... bringing home brownies and cooking dinner seemed to sort tings out.

The main thing is that I can see intellectually what the issue is but it has no 'weight' - because that comes from the emotional side and I just don't understand why people (NTs) can't separate logic and emotion...

Different wiring...

I'm really sorry about that it happened to you :( I try my best to help you with understanding what are usually in NT people's minds when someone hurt them, even when they don't mean it.

a) what did you do to upset them:

it's a tricky one. Since I have anxiety, I always feel like that everyone hates me, after I leave a conversation, I overthink every single thing I said, like "why did I had to say this" "probably I was really annoying". But I can make a comparison, since I know that my autistic husband didn't mean it, but said things what I was really sensitive about, and made me cry.

But sometimes even us, NT people doesn't know how other people are going to react to something we say or do.

b) why they're so upset about it (even some considerable time later):

it's sometimes because there are some things with some people what they are really-really sensitive about, and it's hard to forget when you (accidentally) hit that close to home.

c) why your rational explanation makes things worse:

I know that you mean well, but rational explanation of why they shouldn't be upset can really make things worse. It's because the other person feels like that you belittle their feelings, and it feels like you blame them for misunderstanding you, what I know you don't mean to. Emotions are really tricky things, and my husband struggles with those, even his own, let alone realizing someone else's. NTs are dealing with these kind of things better since we automatically put ourselves in the other person's place (well not everyone, the more emphatic people), and you say and do things what would make you feel better.

d) how to 'fix' it:

Usually how to fix it is to acknowledge the other's feelings (and usually apologize. But there are things you shouldn't apologize for, for example for having feelings, taking up space, etc. I know it makes things more complicated, and I'm sorry for that. But people usually appreciate when you apologize, but you should never be overly humbling, (if I'm making any sense, I'm not native English), since sometimes it's really not your fault and you're not responsible for other people's feelings, like I'm done with Christmas Cards says).

I know it's easier to said than done, so I'll try my best to explain here: NT people when they say things what they don't mean, usually explain why they said these, their situations, where this came from, to make the other understand them more. It's like "I'm sorry I said this, but I was upset, because xxx happened before that, and I didn't mean to take it out on you."

Now, I know that autistic people are straightforward what's awesome, in some situation it's really great, but NT people usually don't like to hear the truth for some reason, usually because they try to not think about it, or they make themselves feel better by telling lies to themselves, what sounds awful.

So, overall, what makes it better is usually saying things like: "I know I made you upset and you have every right to feel that way. I'm sorry I said this, but I didn't know it's a sensitive subject to talk about. I really didn't mean to offend you."

But I know some people then come at you with things like "you use your autism as an excuse" like you said. It's a really thin line between making them understand that you didn't mean it, and them misinterpreting it for you "victimizing yourself". And usually it's not your fault, because in some cases there's nothing you can do, what's really bad.

Sadly there's no universal solution what works with everyone. Everyone's a little bit different, some are more accepting, and for some people you just need to give them time, because it sounds really weird, but some people really like to hold grudges, and it takes time for them to come around, and you can't do anything about it because you tried everything. But in these cases I think it's the best to just let them go, because I know it sucks since you care about them, but there are people who are just toxic like that (but when it's a family member, it's even harder). If they really worth your time and caring, they try to understand you.

e) how to stop it happening again:

you can't. It's impossible to keep track on things what other people don't like to hear, and I know there's so much to learn, and I'm really sorry. I'm always telling my husband that he's doing awesome in a world that's not autistic-friendly, to say at least.

I hope I could help. And again, it's not your fault that you don't automatically know what hurts other people. If they care about you as much as you care about them, they also try to work it out and try to understand you.

It's a lot of communicating, since NTs think a little bit different than autistic people (I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make is a "you vs me" situation), and I know it's really hard to talk about feelings, at least my husband really struggles with talking about his own feelings since he says that he doesn't understand them. Maybe writing it down helps, but probably you know the best what works for you.

But really, the most important thing, again, if they worth your time and caring, they should also work on to understand you, so it shouldn't be entirely on you.

I think it does feel different, and this is what got me interested.

For me, it feels different in a negative way (I'd rather not be doing this) but for typical people eye contact is associated with a release of oxytocin.

Oxytocin combats the stress hormone cortisol, and promotes feelings of wellbeing, bonding, and fuzzy/cozy love feelings. I certainly don't get that from eye contact, but I do get it, for the same chemical reasons as far as I understand, from a cuddle with a romantic partner who cares for me.

So I wondered if some people get the "warm fuzzy everything is OK / loved-up" feeling from eye contact. I asked a counsellor once and she said that maybe some people do (I didn't press her on whether or not she did and hence knew for sure).

It strikes me that it would be quite amazing and life-affirming to have a little dose of human love from every social interaction, so that these interactions become something that you seek rather than avoid.

That's where I was driving with this question at least, to see if anyone came along and said "yes, it makes me feel like that".

I always wonder about the eye contact one.

To me, eye contact is at worst painful. Physically painful. Soul searchingly probingly painful. At best, it's "ooh wow go me I'm making eye contact", which is kinda distracting from the conversation.

So to NTs, does it feel any different than looking at a chair for example?

Thanks IdWCC... I think this is the biggest NT/NA 'problem' - when you try to talk about the fact that maybe they're upset because they've taken your actions/words and interpreted them in a way that was not intended and/or they have 'baggage' that means this is their issue, NTs get really cross and unreasonable and accuse you of 'using your autism as an excuse'...

My psychologist basically said the same as you - other people's reactions to things aren't necessarily my fault/responsibility and people need to 'own' their own behaviour.

I sometimes really, REALLY wish everyone was 'a bit autistic'... life would be so much easier

You aren't responsible for other people's feelings; they are. If someone decided to be upset and thinks they can trace that choice to something that you did or didn't do or say, and they want you to act differently in future, they owe you at least a clear explanation of what happened and how you can work together to help things be better in future.

Unfortunately, not everyone takes responsibility for their feelings, as it is easier to blame someone else. Some people don't even believe that they *should* be responsible for their own feelings & that everyone else has a duty to "make" them happy.

I can relate to having a blind spot or two that means I'm clueless about what I did. Hope you feel better soon.

What's it like not to constantly be upsetting people you care about and have no idea:

 a) what you did that upset them

 b) why they're so upset about it (even some considerable time later)

 c) why your rational explanation of why they shouldn't be upset in the first place just makes things worse

 d) how to 'fix' it

 e) how to stop it happening again

Feeling very 'disabled by autism' today...

I'm really glad that I could help!

Yes, I believe it's quite fascinating and useful that monotone background noises can just "disappear" for NT people. Sometimes that's why it's hard to understand what people on the autistic spectrum feel like. Lately when I'm with my husband, and I can see that he's nervous, I usually do a "scan" in our surroundings, to "re-feel" (I don't know if it makes any sense) the sounds and other sensations.

It must have been exciting to talk to someone who isn't there when it was a new thing

This "being polite" thing is sometimes difficult for NT people as well. For me, it basically goes what you're saying, I just don't really think about it that much. My main question for myself, when I want to be polite, is that "what would make me feel good/respected if I was in the other person's place?". But again, I know it for a fact that my husband struggles with putting himself in other people's place, so I don't know if that's a good advice.

I'm sorry to hear that you lost friends because of this "polite" thing. But honestly, if they can't take no for an answer, then you're better of without them anyway :)

I actually wonder why isn't there more material about how to understand NT people more for autistic people...

Anyway, I'm really happy that you found my reply useful. If I can help you or anyone with these things, feel free to message/reply me. I'm not saying this because it's polite, I really mean it But please note that I'm not an expert or trained at all. All my knowledge comes from experience or researches.

Brilliant! Thank you Kassandra, this is exactly the sort of stuff that I was hoping for.

I'm particularly fascinated to have confirmed that the sensory experience is qualitatively *different*, in that background noise fades away and can be filtered out. 

I recognise a lot of what you say, because I'm an introvert as well as being autistic. I'm 100% with you on the idea that phone calls should be for emergencies despite being i my 50's ! Going back another generation to when landline phones were the only means to contact people, my parents have a really annoying habit of passing the phone around whoever is in the house at the time, as if I called to speak to the house rather than a specific person! I think this goes back to when phones were such an awesome novelty that everyone was excited to have a turn on the magic long distance "talk to someone who isn't here machine" :-)

I think I don't get the "being polite" thing! It seems to take almost physical energy for me to motivate myself to ask about details of another person's life, and it's usually planned and strategic, i.e. "I like this person and value their companionship and opinions, and I know that if I ask about their XXXXX that will help them value me, therefore I will ask".

I've lost friends when people have said the opposite of waht they mean and I've taken them literally, e.g. "Could you do X? No problem if not." Me: "Erm, in that case, no." them "Ra rah rah rah I was only being polite I'm appalled that you said no!".

I will come back to your reply and read it again - lots in there for me to think about, thanks again!

There's a lot of material around about what the world is like for autistic people, intended to help NT people understand autism, but nothing in the other direction intended to help autistic people understand typical people - quite naturally, as autistic people are in the minority I guess. It would be quite helpful to have "A guide to NT people for autistic people" :-).

Hi! NT here, 23 years old, married to an autistic man (29 years old), so I can make a few comparisons. Please note that I have anxiety and depression, and introverted, so in some cases, I feel the same about social interactions as my husband, but try my best to answer these from an NT point of view.

• How does the world *sound*? Is it muted, filtered by attention etc?

It's definitely filtered by attention. I usually notice constant background noise, but with time I don't notice it, if for example it's like the train, or airplane "humming", or people chatting in restaurants. But I know that for my autistic husband it doesn't go away.

• How does eye contact *feel* when experienced as something that you *want* to do? Even with strangers?

Usually I don't notice if I do or don't. In an usual NT conversation body language is not something we usually actively pay attention to. I only watch out for body language, if it's really important for me how the conversation goes, how interested are they, etc, like with a job interview.

• What's it like to be drawn to want to be with a group of other people?

My experience is more at the workplace, since in my free time, if I'm not forced to, I don't really "choose" to be a part of a group, it's really exhausting for me. I prefer one-on-one conversations. But let's say at my workplace I really like if people include me to their group, for example they ask me to come along with them when they go for a lunch or coffee. It's not necessary that I "drawn to want to be" with them, it's more about the gesture, in my case. It feels good that they like me that much that they include me, but it usually comes from my anxiety telling me that no one likes me. So it's kind of good that sometimes people "prove" otherwise.

• What's it like to enjoy a day out with friends, and not be exhausted (except in a tired & content kind of way)?

Well I'm not the person to answer that. Even when it's on one-on-one, I get exhausted and overwhelmed as well, and feels good to recharge alone.

• What's it like to be thrilled at the prospect of going out every single evening for days in a row?

That's an another question I can't relate to, I apologize for that. To be honest, going out requires a lot of planning on my side as well, not only my husband's side. Who's going to be there? How big is that place? Will there be restrooms? How will we get home? If we have to leave early (because of me or because of my husband, doesn't matter), how can we do it? What should we wear so we look like we belong? Etc. So I'm only "thrilled" when someone mentions that they wants me/us to come along somewhere, but as I mentioned before, only because of the "validation" that they like me/us.

• What's it like to want to ask other people where they went on holiday, and be interested in what they tell you about where they went and what they saw?

Honestly, I only care if they are close friends or family, or if I'm interested in the place they went to. But usually, if I ask someone, it's more about the gesture, and about being polite. Sometimes I do it, because I put myself in their place (something my husband can't relate to), so I know that if they would ask me, I would feel better.

• What's it like to say the opposite of what you mean, because for e.g. you're being polite, and yet know that everyone knows what you actually mean?

Sometimes I compliment people's things I know they put a lot of effort into. Like when they dress up nice, or do their nails nice, even if I personally don't really like it, I compliment on it, just to let them know that I noticed their effort.

But if I really have to say the opposite what I mean in a polite situation, like when my boss asks me if I would like to do something, and it feels like I have to, I don't really put too much thought into it. Or sometimes I try to tell something what's partly true, to not be just a flat-out lie.

• What's it like to wish that you had more time for travel, seeing family members, more face to face meetings etc?

I really like traveling, but because of the beautiful places, and not to meet new people. I really get excited when I travel, and I can't really explain it. I like to experience different cultures, but for me it's more about knowing more abut the world surrounding us. My husband always comes along with me, and he just confessed lately that he actually doesn't like to travel, because it's too much new things for him, also disrupting his routine, and he only does it for me, but it's bearable, because I'm there with him, and it's like a "safe place" for him.

Seeing family members is a complete different story though. Really depends on who is the family member, since I don't really like all of them. But if there's someone I like, I'm genuinely excited to meet them, and see if they okay.

These are things I can't really explain, and I apologize, because I think you were looking for an explanation.

• what’s it like to just show up at places, unprepared, happy go lucky and without meticulous planning?

Depends. Sometimes I'm in a mood for just a spontaneous meet up, but only if I know the person and the place well. Otherwise it feels really bad, and I get really anxious, so I can't enjoy myself like other people expect me to.

• what’s it like to just eat whatever someone serves and enjoy it?

Well I'm a picky eater, so eating someone else's place always been a hard thing for me, because chances are, they will serve something I don't like. So if I really hate the food, I just say I'm full. But I try my best to try new foods as well.

• what’s it like to think of a friend, dial their number and start chatting to them?

I never do that, my generation is more about texting. It's much better, because instead of "forcing" them to stop whatever they're doing in that moment, I send them a reminder that I was thinking about them, and they can answer when it suits them. For me, spontaneous phone calls are for emergencies, when I require an answer immediately.

• what’s it like to see someone you recognise , such as a neighbour, coming down the street and look forward to a chat?

I don't really go for a chat, if they do, it's fine, but usually I just say hi if I have to (okay, not have to, but otherwise I would seem rude), but I hope it wont last long and I can go on with my life.

I hope I could help a little. If something is unclear (I'm not a native English), feel free to correct me.