I hate the term "neurotypical "

I also hate the term. It is used in the Autistic Community to describe the other 99% of the world, and it is language that is drilled into people from diagnosis, or childhood by people from all angles of the community. I don't like it at all. I've been in Autistic Workshops and called out the people thrusting it down peoples throats.

My main problem with it is that it creates a "them and us" dynamic. Which instantly puts up a barrier. Not good for either side. If you are taught to see 99% of the world as outsiders, how is your mindset supposed to develop towards them. If we expect people to understand us, and just label them as "neurotypicals", everytime something doesn't go right, we fall into the trap of seeing the whole world as part of the problem. People do it here, I see it regularly. I use the term occasionally, but never in a derogatory way (find a post, if anyone can dispute it), and when I do I put it in quotation marks because I don't like the default definition that the "autistic lexicon" expresses.

It is used in a derogatory term here, regularly. To be frank, if I was reading some of the posts, I'd find it pretty offensive if I was "neurotypical". It makes us look bad, in my opinion. If we expect them to understand us, we need some sort of healthy dialogue, that is beneficial to us all. Obviously there are people that don't want the dialogue on either side, that's their choice, but they reap what they sow.

If someone is a ***, they are just that, and it's not because they are "neurotypical". It's lazy, and to be frank, childish, in my opinion. I've had the *** kicked out of me, been stabbed, gassed, expelled, sacked, been called "loony", a "mong", and blah, blah, blah. I just blamed the individuals, and addressed them, not the whole of "neurotypical" society. Guess what too, sometimes it was my fault. I was a nightmare for part of my life. When things didn't work out my way, I didn't blame "neurotypicals", I had to have a hard look at myself sometimes.

I don't really blame anyone here, and who am I to anyway. They have this language drilled into them, and it's frankly cult-like, in some scenarios. But....some people welcome it with open arms in my opinion, they want to be "the other", an outsider, a misanthrope, a nihilist, and narcissistic. I've met a couple. They are free to, but misery loves company, people with bright outlooks, and no hangups end up getting sucked in.

I don't have a problem with the use of the term, it's how the way it's part of the culture, even by non-autistics working in autism, as a derogatory term, and a boogeyman. I don't think it's healthy for a young person to be given this outlook by adults who are teaching them to navigate an already tough world. As for adults who get a late diagnosis, it throws up a lot of questions regarding past traumas. I think that it can have an affect where it can make people see everything as an enemy, that is to non-autistic, or not part of the Autistic Community.

I'm not telling people not to use it, and I'm not attacking anyone. We've all had a hard path, some harder than others. The thing I'm trying to say is we should try and think about the whole dynamic, not just the word. Dialogue works both ways, and we can't just slap the "NT" label on everything, just as we don't want a label slapped on us. I think people which uses of "neurotypical" I'm talking about. I get it, some "NT's" are no angels, far from it, but the same applies to us.

Right, I'm ready to be called a heretic, but just ponder some of my points.

Cloudy Mountains said:

If you are taught to see 99% of the world as outsiders, how is your mindset supposed to develop towards them.

I thought it was the other way around - that the 99% saw people with neurodiversity as outsiders.  Maybe we make outsiders of ourselves in many ways.  I think, as I said, that the problem is that many, many people - myself included - have had whole lifetimes of not understanding why we had problems doing what other people seemed to be able to do with ease.  This seriously started to do my head in once I hit my thirties.  Wherever I'd been and whatever I'd done up until then, I'd felt like I was being rejected or marginalised by others - starting very much with the bullying throughout my school years.  I tried all sorts of ways of developing relationships with others.  It never seemed to work.  In my early 30s, my depressions started.  I began almost to feel that there was a conspiracy going on.  Other people had friends.  Other people had relationships.  Not me.  What was the secret that they weren't letting me in on?  For quite a long while, I did see things very much as 'me... and everyone else.'  Other people, throughout my life, had seemed either indifferent towards me at best, and hostile towards me at worst.  There wasn't really anyone, apart from my mother, whom I felt could go to, trust, get emotional support from.

When I got my diagnosis, and found out I was neurodiverse, and that I was in a very small minority, and that the majority were neurotypical... then it began to make sense to me.  It was a helpful way of enabling me to understand why I was 'different': I was neurodiverse, they were neurotypical.  Now, I know I've said my things about 'neurotypicals' and their behaviour as much as many other people have.  But the truth is that I do try - as you say - to think about the whole dynamic: to see humans, not sub-categories.  Every one of us is different - old, young, heterosexual, homosexual, black, white, male, female, non-binary, neurodiverse, neurotypical.  Maybe I don't always make a good job of that.  Maybe it's just too easy to find something to blame - and then to find a label to stick on it.  It is wrong, though.  It's as wrong as people making assumptions about others based on race, beliefs, appearance and so on.  Prejudice.  And what's the source of that?  Ignorance.  And where does it lead?  Fights, wars, bloodshed.

I see the point you and others are making - and yes, I can see why people would dislike the term 'neurotypical'.  I'm sorry for getting hot under the collar about it.  I try not to see it as a term of abuse, but as a way of understanding the distinction between autistic and non-autistic neurology.  Yes, though - I admit that I have used it myself to lump other people together as a way of explaining the difficulties I've had.  And that's wrong.

I'm not a misanthrope.  I try to be all-embracing.  I try not to make judgments.  One of the reasons I disengaged from political groups - in real life and on social media - is because of the tendency always to set up 'them and us' positions.  I don't want to have any part of that.  But sometimes I let the guard slip, I admit.  And I don't like that part of me especially.  I'm work in progress.

My comment wasn't about you Tom, I was explaining my position about the whole "neurotypical" issue that the OP had raised. It was about the issue as a whole.

Martian Tom said:

I thought it was the other way around - that the 99% saw people with neurodiversity as outsiders. 

I don't believe so. I have heard the same mindset, in both real life, and online, where people are more than glad to see "neurotypicals" as the outside. It depends how you personally decide to view it. I've actually sat in workshops with other autistics who have got pissed off at the whole dynamic being pushed down their throats. I've actually seen a non-autistic worker get frustrated at a guy who told her he didn't want to think like that, she couldn't accept his view that "My wife, kids, family, and friends are "NT", and they aren't a problem". She kept telling him "but they can never truly understand you". There were young adults there, who were basically happy with "NT's", but we were all "wrongthinkers".

It's their choice to see us as outsiders, as it is also ours to see them as such.

Martian Tom said:

Maybe we make outsiders of ourselves in many ways.

If they make us outsiders that's wrong, but if we choose to be outsiders, that's our choice. There's being forced out, and shunned, but there's also choosing to be an outsider. I think you are making it sound like "we bring it on ourselves", I personally disagree.

Martian Tom said:

I think, as I said, that the problem is that many, many people - myself included - have had whole lifetimes of not understanding why we had problems doing what other people seemed to be able to do with ease.

Myself included. It's drove me to dark places. It's driven a lot of us there.

Martian Tom said:

This seriously started to do my head in once I hit my thirties.

I was first in a shrinks office at 13. First sectioned in my twenties, we've all had problems with different things. My experiences don't trump anyone elses though, bad is bad. For me it's my senses more than anything that gets me down. 

Martian Tom said:

When I got my diagnosis, and found out I was neurodiverse, and that I was in a very small minority, and that the majority were neurotypical... then it began to make sense to me.  It was a helpful way of enabling me to understand why I was 'different': I was neurodiverse, they were neurotypical.

That's sort of setting yourself up for the dynamic of "them and us". Especially with the narrative in the Autistic Community. I thought kind of like it at first, I had an answer, my diagnosis, but some of the stuff that I started to buy into was bullshit, in my opinion. All of my woes weren't down to a "neurotypical boogeyman", they were down to a condition, that now I understand it, I have some form of control over. I'm autistic, it doesn't make me that special, I don't care if I am either. I'm the same person I've always been. At a push, and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe you like being "different", there's nothing wrong with that if it helps you.

Martian Tom said:

I see the point you and others are making - and yes, I can see why people would dislike the term 'neurotypical'.  I'm sorry for getting hot under the collar about it.

No-one's getting at one another here, this is a discussion that I feel needs to be had. I think the fact you are discussing it helps. I didn't see you getting hot under the collar.

Martian Tom said:

Yes, though - I admit that I have used it myself to lump other people together as a way of explaining the difficulties I've had.  And that's wrong.

I've punched people square in the face when I've faced difficulties, probably much worse than name calling, but that was when I wasn't diagnosed, plus, quite a long time ago. I've found that since my diagnosis it's been easier to face the difficulties, I can rationalise it, and when needed help others rationalise it.

Martian Tom said:

I'm not a misanthrope.

No-one said you were.

Martian Tom said:

I'm work in progress.

We all are. A life without challenge, either from ourselves or others, isn't a life worth living. I don't call people "neurotypicals" in the context we are speaking about, but I do use the word *** a lot. It's a good job it gets censored here.

I think in my opinion, with those of us that can communicate well, the need for us to be ready to engage in a dialogue with non-autistics, and not think "neurotypical ***" will help people who are autistic. A lot of our troubles boil down to awareness, not evil "neurotypicals" conspiring against us. The more we can explain things, and make changes, the better the situation will be for us and the following generations of autistics will be. Things are a struggle, but with an open dialogue, they can improve, in my opinion.

This isn't about you, me, or anyone that posts here, it's about the whole Autistic Community. I'm just giving my input on the OP's post, and addressing your reply to me though too, as and where relevant. I just think that if there's changes to be made, it's best we add to the dialogue, and all the better if "neurotypicals" are part of it.

Martian Tom said:

Look... I'm sorry.

I'd believe you but reading through this thread, but seeing your point of view here......

https://community.autism.org.uk/f/adults-on-the-autistic-spectrum/14824/letter-to-myself

which contradicts pretty much everything you've said, directs people here to dogpile, and it seems that someone has gladly took up your call. I'd be lying if I said I did. I'd also be lying if I said accepted your apology.

Seems I was right when I said.......

Cloudy Mountains said:

Passive-aggressive drama maybe?

As for your first post to my last reply, I don't feel a need to address those points they were detracting from the OP's issue, and you are only backtracking to reframe the conversation again, when I feel that you fully meant what you said.

Martian Tom said:

I'm wasn't trying at all to conflate your opinions with these other issues - although I can see that's how you've interpreted it.

You were, and I interpreted it as it was written. Besides you admit this in the thread I linked above.

Martian Tom said:

I was using analogies (crassly, I accept) to try to come to some comprehension of what you meant.

I stand by what I said in my last post about this. You were conflating the issues delibrately, and you don't even mention misquoting me, or that you tried to position my point of view as something that disregards other users. Again you admit this in the thread above.

Martian Tom said:

I'm sorry if I've affronted you in this way.  It was not intentional, I can assure you.

I don't really care about being offended. I care about the things you have failed to address, or put the onus on me for misunderstanding you. I didn't. Again you admit this in the thread above.

Martian Tom said:

I would take the comment down, but I think that would be wrong and cowardly.

It would, I'll agree there.

Martian Tom said:

I'm struggling to come to an understanding of several issues at the moment, and unfortunately I don't seem to be doing it in a way that is very constructive or enlightening - to myself or anyone else. 

Again as I've said, this thread isn't about you, or me for that matter. However, since the thread has started you have more or less made it specifically about you, and oddly only really got into the thick of it with me, which has then in turn drawn me into it. I don't feel that I'm to blame, as you have addressed me directly, and been underhanded at times.

You seem to have taken every point which you feel was directed at you as personal, which was far from the truth. Sat and stewed over it for a few days, and then more or less resorted to a pretty underhanded set of responses.

Just because I think differently about the issue to you, doesn't mean I'm an enemy, it doesn't mean it's about you, and it doesn't mean you are a victim. I'm allowed to think differently. It doesn't make me your "oppressor", if I have different ideas.

Cloudy Mountains said:

I'd hate to see what would happen if you were in the majority!

Well, thankfully that's never likely to happen.

Hi Cloudy Mountains,

Look... I'm sorry.  I'm wasn't trying at all to conflate your opinions with these other issues - although I can see that's how you've interpreted it.  I was using analogies (crassly, I accept) to try to come to some comprehension of what you meant.   It was never my intention to offend or to make some form of personal attack.  I'm sorry if I've affronted you in this way.  It was not intentional, I can assure you.  I would take the comment down, but I think that would be wrong and cowardly.  I've said what I've said.  So I deserve to be judged on it.

I'm struggling to come to an understanding of several issues at the moment, and unfortunately I don't seem to be doing it in a way that is very constructive or enlightening - to myself or anyone else. 

I'm sorry again for offending you.  I've always had great respect for your views, advice and opinions.

Cloudy Mountains said:

You were talking about the autistic community using neurodiverse as a negative or derogatory term......

Yes.  I can see where I've hopelessly confused the issue!  NDs often use the term NT in a derogatory sense.  I meant that NTs might also come to use ND in a derogatory sense - the same as they can use 'autistic'.  And I was speaking generally about usage rather than specifically.  I've heard the word 'autistic' used in a derogatory sense a few times (not on here).  So... just as someone could come to hate the term 'neurotypical' because of the way it often gets used, equally someone could come to feel the same way about 'autistic'.... and then, possibly, 'neurodiverse', too.

Cloudy Mountains said:

I don't know why you are asking me. I don't use either. I'd say it's a bit unfair to imply I would, or conflate it with the issue we were discussing in relation to the OP's post.

Sorry.... I wasn't asking you a question.  It was a general thing again.  Whenever I hear it said, I always wonder what it's supposed to mean.  'Gosh, that's such gay way of doing things', etc. People tack on connotations that can lead to a derogation of the original meaning of the word.

You're right that it depends on context.  What I was trying to say about 'mental' is how it tends to get bandied about in a lazy, slangy way which a lot of people with serious mental health problems find offensive.  Like 'gay'.  It either becomes a shorthand for something, or a distortion.

'Meltdown' isn't a term I like.  If I've said elsewhere that I preferred it, then I can only think it was in comparison to some other term.  Again, it's how it gets commonly used now in a way that changes or distorts its meaning.  It's used in the autistic community to describe a particular kind of incident: an 'overload', as you say.  But it's common usage in all sorts of other ways has somehow demeaned the term.  I remember a few years back, the mother of an autistic child taking Sainsbury's (I think) to task for selling a kids' t-shirt with the slogan 'I'm having a meltdown', or something like.  I thought it was a bit of an extreme reaction, but then I could see her point.  It was as if it was saying that 'meltdown' is synonymous with 'tantrum' - which is quite a different thing.  'Getting out of my pram' used in the context I used it didn't mean I was having a meltdown, just that I was getting a bit hot under the collar about something - which I often do.  The point I was trying to make is that 'meltdown' now seems to have taken on this connotation.  It's used so often that it's probably lost the meaning it's supposed to have in an autistic context.

Cloudy Mountains said:

You were talking about the autistic community using neurodiverse as a negative or derogatory term......

Yes.  I can see where I've hopelessly confused the issue!  NDs often use the term NT in a derogatory sense.  I meant that NTs might also come to use ND in a derogatory sense - the same as they can use 'autistic'.  And I was speaking generally about usage rather than specifically.  I've heard the word 'autistic' used in a derogatory sense a few times (not on here).  So... just as someone could come to hate the term 'neurotypical' because of the way it often gets used, equally someone could come to feel the same way about 'autistic'.... and then, possibly, 'neurodiverse', too.

Cloudy Mountains said:

I don't know why you are asking me. I don't use either. I'd say it's a bit unfair to imply I would, or conflate it with the issue we were discussing in relation to the OP's post.

Sorry.... I wasn't asking you a question.  It was a general thing again.  Whenever I hear it said, I always wonder what it's supposed to mean.  'Gosh, that's such gay way of doing things', etc. People tack on connotations that can lead to a derogation of the original meaning of the word.

You're right that it depends on context.  What I was trying to say about 'mental' is how it tends to get bandied about in a lazy, slangy way which a lot of people with serious mental health problems find offensive.  Like 'gay'.  It either becomes a shorthand for something, or a distortion.

'Meltdown' isn't a term I like.  If I've said elsewhere that I preferred it, then I can only think it was in comparison to some other term.  Again, it's how it gets commonly used now in a way that changes or distorts its meaning.  It's used in the autistic community to describe a particular kind of incident: an 'overload', as you say.  But it's common usage in all sorts of other ways has somehow demeaned the term.  I remember a few years back, the mother of an autistic child taking Sainsbury's (I think) to task for selling a kids' t-shirt with the slogan 'I'm having a meltdown', or something like.  I thought it was a bit of an extreme reaction, but then I could see her point.  It was as if it was saying that 'meltdown' is synonymous with 'tantrum' - which is quite a different thing.  'Getting out of my pram' used in the context I used it didn't mean I was having a meltdown, just that I was getting a bit hot under the collar about something - which I often do.  The point I was trying to make is that 'meltdown' now seems to have taken on this connotation.  It's used so often that it's probably lost the meaning it's supposed to have in an autistic context.