PLEASE TELL I AM NOT CRAZY. . . . . . . SURELY TO GOODNESS, I CANNOT BE THE ONLY ONE, . . . CAN I.??

I have read your discussion with interest even though I don't understand all that has been said. I am wary of lowering the intellectual level of discussion. I think you have been talking about these things in relation to people being actually present with one another? What are your thoughts about when they are not? Descriptions of twins living far apart knowing when something has happened to their sibling even though they couldn't know any other way.. How do you think that works? Or is that a different thing entirely? And what about out of body experiences when perhaps in a sleep or waking up state you see or feel your own body floating above you. I have felt strong connections with animals possibly more so than with people where the animals seem to be able to pick up what you are feeling some animal breeds more so than others and yet we are told not to project our feelings onto them.. ? Apologies if my queries are not relevant to the discussion you have had. I don't think they will be particular to ND though maybe the animal one is. Thank you Deepthought and Angeldust

Hi Hendrow,

Having first had some really interesting discussions with others on here about your post, I would like to offer you the following.

Do you think it may be possible that, because you love and know your partner so well, that what you are actually doing is empathising with her.  And, because you are ND, Deepthought informs me that it may be possible that you experience this very natural and normal act of empathising visually, which means that, this information (that the act of empathising gives you) presents itself in your mind as an actual ‘picture’ of where your partners’ pain may be?

Empathising is the act of imagining another person’s feeling or thoughts so accurately, that we may feel as if we are vividly aware of them (the other persons 'thoughts' and feelings) within ourselves. Empathising is not mind reading as this information comes to us as a 'sense,' an accurate 'hunch' if you will, which we then interpret in our own heads. Empathising is a very natural and extremely important ability we all have (but some people are more consciously aware of when they are being 'empathic' than others) which offers us really important information about how others are feeling. Empathising helps us communicate with others and can also help with our own survival, such as when we 'sense' something is not right. And, as an ND, this information (this sensing) that empathising is providing you with, may come to your mind visually, as a picture, a colour, or even (Deepthought informs me) as a 3D Anatomical map.

I am really in agreement with Recombinantsocks here in that I too think it is wise to be cautious when claiming to be able to hear or read other people’s thoughts. I don’t personally believe this is possible, ‘psychically’ or biologically/psychologically. It may be possible that you can empathise (and know someone so well) to such a degree that you can very accurately imagine what they may be feeling or thinking. However the key point here, which I think I tried my best to convey with my earlier post about ‘having conscious awareness that you are empathising accurately’ is that you realise you are empathising but not actually ‘mind reading,’ is still valid.

Which kind of brings me back full circle in my mind in that, I think what I was asking yesterday was: can it be possible that NDs may differentiate differently and therefore may mistake natural human abilities (such as empathising) to be ‘psychic’ or ‘special’ ability? In my understanding I believe Deepthought answered this with a yes.

And therefore I find Recombinantsocks comments to be very valid; how important, in terms of our mental health, is it that we can effectively differentiate between what is real and what is imagined? Most schools of Psychology would agree with RS in that being able to clearly differentiate between ‘realities’ in this way is very important for our wellbeing and mental health.

Thank you Deepthought, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me understand these things from a different perspective. I am an absolute cynic when it comes to anything associated with or labelled ‘Psychic;’ however I have long been very interested in what could be deemed ‘third space’ phenomena from a Neurobiological and Psychology perspective.

I am particularly interested in Allan Schores work on ‘right brain to right brain mirroring’ (empathic response) in the development of the infantile brain and in the lifelong regulation of affect. And, having read the information you have kindly provided, I now recognise that it may be possible that there may be some ‘overlapping’ taking place in the worlds of Psychology and ‘Psychic’ phenomena in some specific instances. I must therefore perhaps learn to suspend my initial prejudice to some reasonable (but still informed) degree when it comes to anything labelled ‘psychic’ in the future.

Thank you again Deepthought.

Deepthought said:

It would seem that for you then psychic phenomena is nonsensical.

It all depends on definitions. If a psychic is a person that can pick up, subconsciously, on the collective historical actions, expressions (visible body language and verbal speech)  of a person in a way that they can't understand or verbalise then that is OK. NT people are often better at picking things up through expression and are often better in tune with other people. I suppose that a ND person may be better at some parts of this and might specialise and tune their ability in the solitude of their social isolation.

The problem comes when people speak of telepathy as a psychic power. I am deeply sceptical of any possibility that there are alternative ways of passing thoughts from one person to another that do not rely on one of the recognised physical transport mechanisms. We transmit our thoughts by speech, expression, by the accumulated trail of physical actions that we leave behind us when we make things, break things, move things around and organise things and so on. We do not have a way of passing our thoughts through walls to another person in another place unless there is some real mechanism to transmit that thought.

It seems to me that Hendrow may be picking up on other people's pains and emotions subconsciously but that the mental image that he has of that pain is too "real" to him and that he perhaps cannot distinguish between a mental image and a real image. The ability of the mind to construct very convincing images is very familiar to most people because dreams seem to be absolutely real when we are experiencing them. We know, however, when we wake up that we have been dreaming and we are happy to distinguish dreams and other imagined events from images that have a basis in reality. A problem comes when a person cannot distinguish between reality and imagined things. To be clear, some imagined visions can be very useful regardless of whether they were generated in a dream or while a person is conscious. Perhaps some people can slip between consciousness and sleep via a mixed up state where they are unclear about whether they are dreaming or having real experiences?

One other somewhat tangential observation is that Hendrow expresses a fear of mental illness and a reluctance to discuss things in terms of mental illness. I think that an inability to distinguish reality from imagination could be (but isn't necessarily!) so problematic as to require mental health considerations. Surely, on this forum, we should not be afraid of discussing mental health issues and concerns. I am aware that my own mind has been very disturbed at various points. For me, the issues passed by in the same way that a weather storm passes. I am aware that the mental health in my mind has different states on different days and I liken this to meteorological weather in that it can be sunny or stormy on different days. Perhaps it would help if we made a conscious effort to normalise discussions about mental health by discussing them more openly?

Angel Dust said:

Thank you DeepThought, I think (but I am not sure) I understood some of what you said. I understood you to mean that, for some, empathic responses can be visual and ‘show’ themselves as colours (which they may then choose to call Auras) or even anatomical maps? This seems highly plausible and makes sense to me.

Basically psychic phenomena includes empathy as being the ability to sense and influence other's emotional states or feelings, telepathy regarding other's mental states or thoughts, and telekenesis regarding other's physical states or actions, and every living thing does them all, to lesser or greater degrees or extents. How a psychic receives the registration or recognition of what they sense will depend upon their individual capabilities or sensibilities, so for example one psychic may 'see' auric bruising as a result of accumulative or repetitive strain as being a dark cloud around and through a particular part of the physical body, whilst another psychic will actually sense the physical pain in the same part of their physical body personally. 

Angel Dust said:

I was wondering about the empathy and/or psychic correlation because I believe that empathy is currently understood to be a very ‘real’ (essential to our survival) and natural phenomenological activity which takes place in intersubjective relationship between self, other and/or the ‘world.’

Absolutely yes, no doubt whatsoever. Psychic abilities give us our sense of space, and if someone or something registers on our psychic radar as a threat ~ we become to some extent hypertensive, and alert, although the hypertensive state may not actually be noticed immediately, the resulting attentiveness usually is if the unsettling influence persists.

We know from sociological studies that the survival instinct registers future threats some time before people even see, hear or smell predators or invaders, which as a process is referred to as 'Spooky-Entanglement' in physics, or more simply effects from afar, or even the hundredth-monkey-effect if that rings any bells?

Angel Dust said:

However, to acknowledge you are empathising is to be aware that what you are currently feeling (or visualising) is a very ‘real’ and natural response which occurs within an intersubjective relationship with another. A phenomenon which naturally occurs between you and another, but not solely originating from within you as an individual ‘alone’ as such; but instead it is alleged to take place in a shared ‘third’ space between you and ‘other.

’

Well with exception to the 'alleged' descriptor of your statement, it stands to reason.

Angel Dust said:

I am therefore purely wondering; due to the ‘relational’ differences which can be common with neurodiversity, I wonder therefore if NDs differentiate in this same way; if they may experience this empathic response to be originating ‘solely’ from themselves only instead?

This believing that psychic phenomena or input originates from oneself rather than others can be and has been a problem for some N.D.'s, in that they pick up on others 'stuff' such as wanting to harm others, which alot of people imagine doing, i.e. '(I am going to murder that idiot)' or some such, but only in the imaginative sense. N.D.'s relationship with others and the world at large is more direct and objectively focused, so if a persons thoughts register as actual actions towards another, this can be very problematic, obviously. If you have ever heard a tune that keeps replaying over and over in your mind, which some call "Earworms", imagine the distress of harmful feelings and thoughts that have been picked from others. A good many psychics have to learn how to deal with this themselves or with help from others. 

Angel Dust said:

If this were the case, this might suggest (feel,) to the individual themselves, as if they are indeed performing acts of ‘psychic’ or special ability ‘on their own’ so to speak? When it may be that they are instead experiencing the empathic responses which may very naturally occur through the experience of an ‘attuned’ intersubjective relationship with another, be those responses visual or otherwise? A very natural ability which NTs and NDs alike all possess to varying degrees but may not be consciously aware of experiencing or reacting to in their everyday lives?

Very much so yes.

Angel Dust said:

I am very comfortable when considering such occurrences as very natural (and interesting) ways of communicating with ourselves and one another and are therefore a natural part of experiencing empathic responses in relationship with one another,  as, for me, this process suggests humility, connectivity, and a shared consciousness on some level.~

I do not go for the humility thing personally, but equality, connectivity and shared conscious ~ so much more easier, fulfilling and productive on the whole really.

Angel Dust said:

~However I feel very unreceptive when considering these same phenomena in terms of ‘psychic ability’ as, for me, individuals who profess to have (or claim these empathic skills to be) ‘psychic’ abilities can often tend to use this to claim power or superiority over (often vulnerable) others. Therefore I find I have much time for empathy and its many varied presentations, and extraordinarily little positive regard for ‘psychics.’

I think the important thing to consider here is not to call people what they are not, i.e. a 'mentalist' is not a psychic specialist, otherwise guilt and prejudice can and often is as such cast by association from those who are doing wrong, over to those who are doing right, and all that.

Thank you DeepThought, I think (but I am not sure) I understood some of what you said. I understood you to mean that, for some, empathic responses can be visual and ‘show’ themselves as colours (which they may then choose to call Auras) or even anatomical maps? This seems highly plausible and makes sense to me.

I was wondering about the empathy and/or psychic correlation because I believe that empathy is currently understood to be a very ‘real’ (essential to our survival) and natural phenomenological activity which takes place in intersubjective relationship between self, other and/or the ‘world.’

However, to acknowledge you are empathising is to be aware that what you are currently feeling (or visualising) is a very ‘real’ and natural response which occurs within an intersubjective relationship with another. A phenomenon which naturally occurs between you and another, but not solely originating from within you as an individual ‘alone’ as such; but instead it is alleged to take place in a shared ‘third’ space between you and ‘other.’

I am therefore purely wondering; due to the ‘relational’ differences which can be common with neurodiversity, I wonder therefore if NDs differentiate in this same way; if they may experience this empathic response to be originating ‘solely’ from themselves only instead?

If this were the case, this might suggest (feel,) to the individual themselves, as if they are indeed performing acts of ‘psychic’ or special ability ‘on their own’ so to speak? When it may be that they are instead experiencing the empathic responses which may very naturally occur through the experience of an ‘attuned’ intersubjective relationship with another, be those responses visual or otherwise? A very natural ability which NTs and NDs alike all possess to varying degrees but may not be consciously aware of experiencing or reacting to in their everyday lives?

I am very comfortable when considering such occurrences as very natural (and interesting) ways of communicating with ourselves and one another and are therefore a natural part of experiencing empathic responses in relationship with one another,  as, for me, this process suggests humility, connectivity, and a shared consciousness on some level. However I feel very unreceptive when considering these same phenomena in terms of ‘psychic ability’ as, for me, individuals who profess to have (or claim these empathic skills to be) ‘psychic’ abilities can often tend to use this to claim power or superiority over (often vulnerable) others. Therefore I find I have much time for empathy and its many varied presentations, and extraordinarily little positive regard for ‘psychics.’

Angel Dust said:

I would like to tentatively wonder if empathy plays a subtle but intrinsic role here.

Very simply yes, although subtle is not always the case.

Angel Dust said:

I know there has historically been the belief that NDs are not empathic but I have always believed this to be entirely and completely wrong. I have always believed that NDs are incredibly empathic, more so perhaps than the general population, but that they may not be able to easily identify this ability in themselves in the same way that NTs can.

Yes that is the case also.

Angel Dust said:

And so I wonder; if you had a partner and deeply cared about them, if they were in pain, would it not be possible to empathise so effectively with their suffering that you could vividly imagine (see) where their pain is and how they are feeling, to such a degree that this level of deeply empathising could easily feel as if it were actually a psychic or ‘special’ ability?

Being able to sense someone else's energetic anatomy or auric embodiments can be presented to the mind and represented 'as-is' in terms of being luminescent or coloured fields, or as confabulations derived from memory - such as anatomical pictures as being 'artistic-impressions' that map with the persons body three-dimensionally. Obviously the more psychic a person is the closer their visual representation will be to the other person's actual energetic embodiments, i.e. 'X-Ray-Vision' sort of thing. We can refer to this type of visualisation as being presentation-strong, whereas the empathic representation can be presentation weak, i.e. a confabulation strong, but is none the less just as as much a psychical ability. 

I would like to tentatively wonder if empathy plays a subtle but intrinsic role here.

I know there has historically been the belief that NDs are not empathic but I have always believed this to be entirely and completely wrong. I have always believed that NDs are incredibly empathic, more so perhaps than the general population, but that they may not be able to easily identify this ability in themselves in the same way that NTs can.

And so I wonder; if you had a partner and deeply cared about them, if they were in pain, would it not be possible to empathise so effectively with their suffering that you could vividly imagine (see) where their pain is and how they are feeling, to such a degree that this level of deeply empathising could easily feel as if it were actually a psychic or ‘special’ ability?

Hey Recombinantsocks,

Given that:

Hendrow said:

I can see, like an X-ray into my partners body. Also I can see where the pain is in her body, including how deep it is.

and that:

recombinantsocks said:

You sincerely believe that you can do these things. I beg to differ.

I would use the word illusion rather than ability.

I think the situation is then that 'you believe' that Hendrow cannot or is not doing as he describes, and you are not aware that illusions do correspond with psychic sensibilities in terms of being pictographic/photographic representations of particular types of phenomena, such as for instance colours are in terms of being illusions of the mind ~ in that what we see around and about us is actually just black and white, or shades of grey. Whatever is experienced visually is both a presentation and a representation, as being then an illusion and by default an ability. 

recombinantsocks said:

None of the other forum members have this ability so it is not likely to be a result of autism.

Well I know of several autistic people with similar abilities and have already stated that I have them too, and I am a member of this forum also. Of course to the uninformed or inexperienced being psychic and autistic might seem not to correspond, but most of the long established religions state otherwise, as do particular fields of psychology as mentioned previously above. Further more:

From:

https://www.psychologytoday.com./blog/stuck/.../are-autistic-and-psychic-people-similar?

Anneli Rufus >(a certified Intuitive Gestalt Dialogue Method practitioner)<

Author of Stuck: Why We Can't (or Won't) Move on.

Are Autistic and Psychic People Similar?

After meeting autistic animal behaviour expert Temple Grandin and then reading Grendin's

bestselling books, Nancy Du Tertre realised that she and Grandin had a lot in common.

"I was immediately struck with how much the interior would of the autistic resembles

the interior world of the psychic," Du Tertre told me in an interview this week, "Like autistics,

psychics often tend to suffer a defect in reasoning power, can't explain how they just seem

to know things, cant find words to describe their experiences, and share a right

hemisphere ability to absorb the world holistically, visually, and extremely literally."

"It is this literalness of sensory experience which can seem, to the non-autistic and non-psychic

person, to be overwhelming, confusing and nonsensical. It is a far cry from our 'normal' logical,

sequential and rational world."

It would seem that for you then psychic phenomena is nonsensical. Obviously just because we are autistic ~ it does not mean that as such we all have psychic abilities beyond what is considered normal, i.e. knowing someone is looking at us, going to call us or is in mortal danger or dying, but being autistic does mean that the chances of having psychic or empathic abilities beyond the norm is by proportion more the case (i.e. seeing auras and auric embodiments) ~ in general terms when compared with neurotypicals.

Hendrow said:

I think the source of this ability is HFA-Autism

You sincerely believe that you can do these things. I beg to differ.

I would use the word illusion rather than ability.

None of the other forum members have this ability so it is not likely to be a result of autism.

I suspect that you have been under enormous stress recently to the extent that you really don't know if you are coming or going.

I guess that you are also taking medication that will have side effects. Some side effects can be profoundly mind altering.

Hendrow said:

Hey Deep Thought, I have been so busy with life and love in the NCW aka Reality. I like your style I will answer all of your point's as soon as I get settled again. NCW = Non Cyber World.

Hey Hendrow,

Well likewise with the style thing ~ especially the poetry, and I hope your getting settled again comes easily and smoothly.

Take care H.

A fleeting visit however Tom, to manage my 'Comedy Curve Club' posting's (As I had promised to do), I have to get those things out of my head, it makes me feel better. I am a Wordsmithonian at heart, lol. Toda Raba, Tom ' You Martian, You'       

Good to see you back, Hendrow!

Hey Deep Thought, I have been so busy with life and love in the NCW aka Reality. I like your style I will answer all of your point's as soon as I get settled again. NCW = Non Cyber World.

Hendrow said:

Most people don't know how the 'Psychic' things work, even at the very highest levels. I do, so it is that on which I base my statement, Psychic phenomena is one of the things used to support re-incarnation, Deepthought. 

I.) Psychic phenomena begins at rebirth, after about four and a half months gestation in mothers' wombs involving 're-incarnation', as describes physically reproduced and mentally represented  embodiments of:

A.) A 'spiritual sole' or 'living spirit' in terms of theology and spirituality;

B.) A 'conscious self' or 'personality' in term of philosophy and psychology; or

C.) An 'energising zero-point entity' or 'particle' in terms of metaphysics or quantum-physics.

2.) In anthropomorphic terms, we have gone from having cross correlated myths, sacred paintings, texts and reports of our 'spirits', 'ghosts' and 'demons'; along with then psychological models and treatments involving 'personality' types, 'personalities' and 'personae'; and along with then technological footage of spatial, dimensional and formational field embodiments of the aforementioned by way of 'S.Q.U.I.D. enhanced F.M.R.I. scanners.

Hendrow said:

That is one of the reasons I know that re-incarnation is not what it seems. i.e  'real'. Of course that could be deemed subjective, but with logic and reason, knowledge and understanding, you can prove this beyond any reasonable doubt.

3.) It appears here that you state that reincarnation is not real, that this judgement could be deemed subjective, and that I can (or even have) proven as much???   

4.) Obviously you have been trying to assert that reincarnation is not real, which amounts to counterproductive reasoning, or using oxymorons, i.e. employing contradictory statements which disprove or confuse the points you were making.

5.) Consider for instance that when I posted that I had writers block, you posted:   

A.) "Deepthought, I do not buy into that writers block theory, my question to you is what is blocked, and by what is it blocked"

6.) Now for someone who does not buy into writers block, the questions asked were only relevant to issues involving writers block, which were in themselves rather good questions to ask from an psychological/analytical standpoint, very good questions indeed.

7.) The fact that you discounted writers block as essentially being a hypothesis, and then used the theory like a professional dancer knows the dance steps, which is dichotomous thinking. Or more simply "Autistic Thought," ~ black and white counter-productive thinking.

8.) It took me three decades to get the hang of mine, and use it more effectively ~ which in poetic terms you do very effectively. Obviously, muck ups happen along the way, but learning from them is one of my Aspergian fascinations (which some call obsessions). I really live by the saying that all problems are solutions in disguise, so if I write anything that does not make sense, or is high in social calamity status, I really do appreciate being informed about it, so that I can do less of it . . . hopefully.

Hendrow said:

As an example a Magician, pulls the head off of a pigeon, or at least 'seem's to'. If you know how it is done, how can you 'believe' what you know is not so?   E=Mc2    It is a manipulation of energy, simple once you know how. I have said too much already, I will bow out now.

9.) You very much seam to be referring to psychic charlatanism ~ i.e. using one skill set whilst claiming to use another for increased effect, such as for fame and fortune, or infamy and destitution.

10.) A classic example of psychic charlatanism; involves people who are naturally gifted in the behavioural sciences, and in recognising peoples childhood patterns of abuse ~ as occur at particular ages of maturational development at home, school, work and so fourth ~ the foe-psychic or foe-medium can tell the clients life-story from what ever perspective, i.e. "Your mother/father/brother/sister/etc apologises for abusing you." and whatever else fits, with exactitude.

11.) Most people of this sort actually believe they are mediums, and actually do provide a very beneficial service indeed. Losing loved ones and learning to accept them as being physically dead, but spiritually close for at least a while, is commendable, especially if both charlatan and grieving client believe it is in all faith true. When it comes to the manipulation and swindling of the bereaved, the less there is of that the better, methinks.

Hendrow said:

I am prepared to argue my case with anyone, but only as a one2one, the offer is open to all. I would not do it in such a public forum as this one Deepthought, you may email me if you so desire. I will not be on here much for a while, I will look-in when I can, and try to maintain my threads here. 

12.) Well I am not into having arguments, yet I do enjoy a good debate, as in the sense of discussing different perspectives for mutual satisfaction, and or practicable benefit for others.

13.) As for discussing autistic or divergent abilities on this site as an open forum, that is entirely why I use this site, and I am rather a stickler for following the N.A.S. rules for the protection of the community, which you have invited me and others to break in terms of having one to one emails with you.

16.) So, excusing my slight paraphrasing; please respect fully the following NAS information:

A.) Our >[Autistic and otherwise]< Community is designed to be a safe and welcoming place for those that use and visit it for support and information about autism.

B.) By joining the Community you agree to be bound by all of the rules, including more so currently the following one:

C.) 2.This community forum is public, so do not post personal or identifying details on it. This includes, but is not limited to: full names, addresses, email addresses and phone numbers.

Thankyou

Have a good one,

and many more,

play safely

DT

I am Super thanks, how is you?

Hendrow...glad you're here...you've been quiet...you ok?

Most people don't know how the 'Psychic' things work, even at the very highest levels. I do, so it is that on which I base my statement, Psychic phenomena is one of the things used to support re-incarnation, Deepthought. That is one of the reasons I know that re-incarnation is not what it seems. i.e  'real' Of course that could be deemed subjective, but with logic and reason, knowledge and understanding, you can prove this beyond any reasonable doubt. 

As an example a Magician, pulls the head off of a pigeon, or at least 'seem's to'. If you know how it is done, how can you 'believe' what you know is not so?   E=Mc2    It is a manipulation of energy, simple once you know how. I have said too much already, I will bow out now.

I am prepared to argue my case with anyone, but only as a one2one, the offer is open to all. I would not do it in such a public forum as this one Deepthought, you may email me if you so desire. I will not be on here much for a while, I will look-in when I can, and try to maintain my threads here. 

H.

Thanks MT,

My usual problem is putting complex systems of imagery and thought into simple words, and I had gotten rather burnt out with that over the last month or two. Things are on the mend though, and learning curves are rather useful really ~ especially when I actually learn from them!