A thought I had this morning about neurodivergence and the modern world - opinions appreciated!

1900 might work for you, but it wouldn't for everybody, if you were in service your life would be very controlled, for women especially young women you'd have to have your underwear inspected by the housekeeper to make sure you were menstruating and not pregnant which would see you home and jobless. 

Womens lives were hard, the amount of housework was staggering, plus childcare, being more or less perpetually pregnant or breastfeeding and often doing some paid work too, such as taking in washing and mending.

I don't like Brutalist architecture, these building were designed by people trying to impse how they thought people ougth to live rather than how they did/do live. It's the same with all the ticky tacky boxes made by most big builders, they're tiny, many so small you can't get a double bed and a wardrobe in the same bedroom, if you can then it's called an "executive house". I watch quite a lot of property programes and many of them are about reconfiguring houses to suit how we live today.

I'd like to see much more diversity in our buildings especially houses and many more self build plots, where the council instal services and maybe a concrete pad for the building to sit on but you do the rest. You can design a house that totally suits you and you could have anything from a straw bale house you construct youself to a kit house that comes on the back of a lorry and is up within a week and meets passive house energy standards. 

TheCatWoman said:

I'm not sure about the quality of life in small agricultural villages either, you might have known what you were going to do that day and every day, but what if you couldn't do hard manual labour?

Say around 1900, you would still have plenty of trades, butcher, baker, post office, pharmacist, cartwright, blacksmith, greengrocer, publican, ironmonger, and maybe some sort of clothing outlet. Plus maybe the railway.

Plenty would be employed on large estates in service, maid, cook, butler, housekeeper, groom for the horse and carts, maybe somone to look after the hounds, etc.

So there were plenty of non manual labour jobs. Not every one worked down pit (mine), or on a farm, construction or in a factory.

I do, believe they were designed that way yes. But that was within the limited context of the time. I live in a Brutalist building, it is beautiful in places but its also totally ridiculous how it was designed. There are rubbish shutes, and viewing platforms and public spaces which are no longer used. So in this way design is outmoded, these areas can be reporposed but somoene needs to see the positive and impress the potential apon people. I have lived in old houses most I would not go back to because they are cold, or small inside. I have also lived in the country too, in the most beautiful places but had to get back to the city. Where I am is a developing area on the edge of the city, I haven't been that happy for the last couple of years just because of the cost impact on quality of life. Double glazing I cannot live without now and having the internet is like having hot runnign water I just take it for granted!!

stesykes77 said:

She decided we should be a service and finance country

I think you will find it much more nuanced than this - the world changed a lot with the competition from other countries such as Germany and Japan which were building their manufacturing might in the 60s/70s and our manufacturing base just couldn't compete.

Through a combination of short sighted lack of investment and the incredible debt we carried from 2 world wars, the county was in no fit shape to adapt to compete so the mood at the time (not just Thatcher but most of the right wing) was to take usi in a different direction - hence the service economy with a focus on financial services.

Following the move the country did incredibly well - the service/finance sectors boomed, we grew to be world leaders and in the decades that followed the country was quite wealthy.

That was until New Labour got in and started spending all the money we had, sold our gold reserves off at rock bottom prices and left the country nearly bankrupt ( https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-22897412 )

The loss of manufacturing was inevitable I think. Our workforce demand too high a wage to be competetive and the workforce lack the same work ethic that the Germans or Japanese had.

A combination of competition, poor productivity and mismanagement were the death knell for the industry.

We do still have a decent specialised manufacturing base but this is far from the old style production line stuff that offers repetition and consistency.

Do you think buildings etc were designed to be inclusive in the past? I don't, doors not wide enough to fit a wheelchair or pram through, stairs everywhere. Attitudes towards anyone even a bit different were terrible.

I'm not sure about the quality of life in small agricultural villages either, you might have known what you were going to do that day and every day, but what if you couldn't do hard manual labour?

It might seem a strange thing for an historian to say, but I wouldn't want to live in the past, there's so many things the modern world gives us, health care, anti-biotics is a good example, if you look in old church yards at the grave stones, you see people dying of things that a course of antibiotics would cure now. We don't have to fear getting a cut when we're out doing the garden, like they would pre WW2. Public health, like drains, flushing tiolets and and hot running water, clean drinking water just didn't exist for the many. We have so many diferent types of food availble to us, we can travel to other countries, we can make so many more choices about how and where we live and who we live with.

Having lived in a couple of small villages I can tell you they become really stiffling after a time, everybody know's everybodies business, theres no such thing as privacy, how would you feel about people feeling free to walk into your house without knocking? If you locked your doors it would be because you have something to hide.

How would you all cope without phones, computers, games consoles etc, I'm probably the least techy person here and even I would miss the internet for all its problems.

Hi

I think about this often. In relation to my ADHD, I wonder if Margaret Thatcher has made things worth - stick with me here : )

She killed off 100,000s of manufacturing jobs  - just the type of roles that suit ADHD traits. She decided we should be a service and finance country  - so all those people who could have been on their feet, outdoors, doing physical tasks are now expected to sit in an office and mess about with emails and reports and spreadsheets.

I personally LOVE spreadsheets but I guess that the ASD part in me.

I think about his kind of thing a lot. I don’t feel a lot of things are designed with me\people like me in mind.

The modern world is largely designed without inclusion in mind. In someways it makes for more attractive architecture and objects if they are defined and have one use. Particularly through a populist lens. We also have to buy more and take more actions in order to get things done. The problem is inherent, it’s in how we move and communicate and wear clothes. It needs to be undone and rethought. There are many other ways to do something this knowledge has been perpetually limited as humans evolved and became more ‘civilised’. 

I absolutely believe this. if workplaces were not designed for and ruled by ‘normal’ extroverts with exaggerated self confidence then it would be a more fair and balanced place. It’s unlikely an all inclusive model would be largely adopted.if you think about high achieving work and capitalism they depend on there also being failure and those who do not make money to continue to exist. I think this truth is depressing and shows what an unfair playing field it is those of us who are not average. I used to believe there was a design bias in public municipal and office workplace, now I think it’s less introvert extrovert as diverse and normal. 

I think in the small agricultural communities of the past, where everyone is known to everyone else, the pace of life is slow, people are fixed in what they do and how they do it and the year has an unchanging and predictable routine, being autistic would hardly register at all.

reminds me of something Stuart333 which please excuse my joining in to share.

My lovely sister is type 1 diabetic - at xmas she picks a chocolate from the tub - mentally goes "hmm yes that I remember to be lovely" then puts it back... She's the last of her cohort of people of her age locally who is still alive.  for a good reason I suspect :-)

You could say if it weren't for modern life you wouldn't be able to function on your own.

Which raises the question:

Since we have made it possible,  is it answering a need or is it all dysfunctional?

Is this isolation what we want because it is easier, or just a seductive poison, like too much sugar? You know it's bad but you can't stop?

I have this thought all the time! When I find something impossible to navigate and try to break it down I can't help but notice that 1) the difficult bits are all entirely manmade and 2) they are often things invented in the last century

Then I think of all the things that exist now that actually help me cope with the world. I'm grateful for these and they make me somewhat functional. But would I even need them if society hadn't made life so complicated?

At this point I usually grab my dog's lead and head into the hills. If it wasn't for the need of basics like shelter, clean clothing and food, I'd probably not keep coming back

Loz said:

If we lived in a much earlier, slower world — before all the hustle and bustle — would traits linked to ASD or ADHD actually have been less of a difficulty? Or maybe even strengths?

I have thought this.

In Hunter gatherer times, autistic tribe members would probably have carried out the tasks that they were more suited to - things like making tools, finding useful plants & herbs and tracking animals. I think that early human societies would have valued the practical skills someone could bring to the community. 

Fast forward to when farming started, and some autistic people would have been the forerunners to modern autistic animal experts like Chris Packham and Dr Temple Grandin, knowing all about the animals and how to care for them, or they might have understood the land and how best to grow crops. And there would also have been those who were good at crafts or skilled in things like producing honey or wine. 

In the early years of scientific discovery, it's now believed that many of the people who made those discoveries were on the autistic spectrum. They might have been viewed as a little eccentric, but were left to themselves to use their individual gifts to help mankind progress.

Fast forward to the 20th century and we have huge changes - the rise of cities, of motorised traffic, huge rises in populations, social mobility and fragmented communities where people no longer know their neighbours. Many of us never see the countryside and nature is more difficult to engage with.

Every time we go out we have to deal with strangers who we don't feel comfortable with. Traffic noise and sirens. Music and announcements in stores. People now rarely have a "family doctor" for years who knows them. We make appointments via a receptionist who is often a stranger to us, to see a medical professional who may also be a stranger to us.

Most of us can't use skills like arts, crafts, animal or plant knowledge to make money - we have to do jobs that are inappropriate for autistic people such as working in an office, factory, warehouse or supermarket. Due to the structure of modern society, we no longer live in small communities where people know each other and learn to understand each other's strengths, skills and idiosyncrasies - our circles of people we know are smaller, making us feel more vulnerable. We often withdraw as it seems too much hard work to try to build a friendship from scratch.

Neurotypical people can filter out unwanted inputs such as noise and crowds of people, but autistic people don't have that ability. So I do believe it's the modern world that disables us.

HiLoz 

I think you’re right. Some traits linked to autism or ADHD, like noticing details or focusing deeply, might have been really useful in an older, slower world.

Today’s fast, noisy, socially demanding world makes them feel harder to manage.

l love to escape into nature when I can. It just helps to calm my system down.

You are right to highlight the anonymity of cities. The perverse  isolation of being with too many people who are too busy to notice.

But while gossip happens more in smaller communities, they are not always unsupportive. You'd be playing a postcode lottery, but then you still do.

I have always been drawn to the past. I live in a 160 yr old small house, my pub is a 400 yr old coaching in, the florist he as old as exposed wooden beams, a couple of shops have old bullseye glass, I like castles, monasteries, stately homes, etc.

The best example was a long time ago, I spent a month in Silverton in Colorado. It was an old silver mining town, with a steam train, small quiet, not so far removed from a movie set.

When I drove back to Denver the culture shock of the glass and metal buildings was significant. I realised then I don't like the modern world 

In my first job I had an office, an in and out tray, a tea lady came round, we had a typist, I wrote things on paper, you were invited to meetings on paper. It was old fashioned even for the time and was right at the end. But I miss it.

I have few gadgets. I can type faster than I can write though, and is suits my sometimes scattered thoughts.

I think a slower life of say 50 years ago was less demanding. But I think this is not just an ASC issue.

It might have been easier to fly under the radar in some respects, I think there were jobs were you could hide, like sweeping factory floors and stuff, but would you have been able to hide socially? That I'm not to sure of, smaller comunities often means more surveilance and gossip, if you can't partake in the gossip or if some of your habits are a bit different then that could cause problems, if you were a woman in the 16th-18th centuries that difference could be fatal, leading you to be branded a witch and executed. So I really think it would depend on when you born, what gender you were and how well off your family were, if you were wealthy then I'm sure you could get away with more and just be classed as eccentric, although if you were unlucky you could of ended up in Bedlam. 

I think some of the classically female autistic traits such as being quiet, shy and "modest" were/are ones favoured by a patriarchal society and autistic women could of been valued for those "virtues", but I suppse it would depend on whether your huband remained happy with you being unable to support him in his social ambitions?

Would of been happy as a 1950'd housewife? Or a 1950's man?

There are some improvements today and a better understanding of mental health difficulties. 

However, I do think one reason I had less issues when I was younger was due to the slower pace of life. Many things allowed me time to work things out at my speed. Paperwork suited my organised mind and was much easier than logging onto websites.

Although I didn't realise why I had issues with labels and thought everyone had a strong sense of smell, I did find quieter manual tools and gadgets more pleasant. 

Even before I was diagnosed I always believed I was born in the wrong time. Obviously life was stressful in different ways years ago, but I genuinely feel that a simpler life with less modern day trappings would be bliss compared to this. That might just be me idealising the past without really considering the difficulties of then though. I suppose it would have been harder in the sense that neurodiversity wasn't really a thing (of course it was) and those that would be diagnosed now, were probably seen as "insane" or something equally negative. 

Yep the complexity can mess with the pattern recognition.  Too much background interference!  Too little chance to really hone a grove and live life a more "natural pace".

Can be done...  Damn hard tho'! 

Having not experienced a past when things were really hugely different e.g. likely pre-industrial revolution at least - hard to know for sure I suspect

- maybe nearly all people experience this?  Maybe autistic people more likely to be the metaphorical canaries in the coal mine?

I had similar thoughts long ago. I thought I was born in wrong times because if this- the world is too much for me. I had no idea about Autism, ADHD,  ND etc. It was just my instinct. Currently I participate in world and life as much as I can. I don't care how much clubs shopping centres and cinemas are fitted to me. They are not at all, so I don't go there or as seldom as possible and with my sensory items. The problem was that I used to be forced to go there and behave like others which was a torture for me.