Polytheism,

TheCatWoman said:

what I don't understand is why so many people gave it up for montheism?

Because the religions in monotheism want to keep you all to themselves, to get all your donations, your presence to make others want to go to their church etc,

It is ultimately a power play.

All very true Iain, but I was hoping for something a bit more philospical

TheCatWoman said:

I was hoping for something a bit more philospical

I honestly don't think the majority of people give it much thought - they are indoctrinated into religion by their parents typically and made to go where the family goes, so by the time they are old enough to make a rational analysis of their religion choice, they have a lifetime of learned "code" on how to worship, what is right and wrong in the eyes of their god and have many friends already in the church of their parents, so the interia is hard to break.

The vast majority of those I know, including several church ministersm, have all talked about it this way to me at some point or another (you can tell I'm a hit at parties with this line of discussion) and most felt their "connection" when they were very young, so well before they could make a rational analysis of it.

Of the tiny number of people I know who chose to look closely at alternative religions, none have settled on one for a long period - the religions all seem to have their strengths and failings.

Personally I think any religion is a form of control, imposing rules from an entity who none can prove exists and where there is only the word of people who hear voices in their head to base the witings on.

Most people seem to need to believe in something greater than themselves and will perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify it, but I'm just not convinced.

Some aspects of your experience of the Christian faith are similar to mine Little Owl.

I used to be a Catholic Christian who felt ‘at home’ with some of the contradictions in the Bible because they could be explained by things like translation, authorship, intended audience, purpose of writing, dating of passage, or even dating of just a sentence inserted in a passage. Some writings were intended to be historical (yet may have only some known historically accurate elements ) other writings were intended to be understood as parables, allegories, teaching, sayings etc. A passage could be understood on different levels, yet sometimes nothing could explain it. 

Regarding hell, it used to frighten the ‘bejesus’ (said in an Irish accent) out of me. Later I learned that there is no official church statement about the actual damnation of any individual human being. The fact that the Catholic Church hopes that all people will be saved and go to heaven was a revelation to me. 

I gradually lost faith in Christianity because it has never satisfactorily explained the problem of evil and suffering, and other religions do not have a satisfactory answer either. Misogyny is alive and kicking within the Catholic Church, notably in the hierarchy, but it is also in other Christian denominations. The treatment of LGBTQ+ people has been disgusting, and it isn’t much better now.

These days I am agnostic. Apart from a few funerals, I haven’t been in a church building for years. Yet I continue to be inspired by the Gospel accounts of ‘Jesus the Radical’. He changed the lives of the marginalised, the poor, and those afflicted by all sorts of mental and physical illnesses. He was a brave man who didn’t hide within buildings filled with priceless treasures, surrounded by impregnable walls. I don’t believe he was God, but I do believe he was a selfless  person who knew he was risking his life for the sake of others. 

I wish you peace, and if you decide to explore your spirituality further, I hope you receive strength and consolation on the journey.  

DaughteroftheKing said:

there is a specific way  not to interpret the Bible and a specific way to interpret it. The wrong way, is to just read and make up what we think it means

This is the source of many of my issues with organised religion as this approach is saying "the church has interprited the bible in the way we think is right and anyone else is wrong".

The church then uses its organisation (ie preachers) to pass down this approach to the masses, effectively spreading this very specific interpritation.

When you see how often the interpritation has changed through time you start to realise how often the church was wrong or how they have simply updated the interpritation to avoid losing "market share" or to push the agenda of the day.

This starts to show that the church is much less about the word of god but about the business of the church - how to keep itself in power, keep the believers coming to them and to keep the coffers full.

My grandfather worked in the church and explained to me some of the machinery of the business of the church and it is really just a big corporation behind the scenes.

This is a big part of why I think faith is a great thing but organised religion is not.

You should try the Catholic faith, we have the magesterium which interprets the Bible the same as the apostes and the fahers of the church. We don't have female ministers and never will have, because Jesus did not choose females to be priests, despite their being very loyal holy woman in his followers. Being 'gay' is not a sin, but acting on those disordered feeling is. May 'gay' catholics live a holy celibate life. No person is bad or evil, it is merely that they do bad or evil things. All of which can be forgiven by God should they ask. Just to note the Bible is both literal and not, there are several ways to interpret it - all of them are worthy. God knew there would be autistic perople, He created us and He knows and respects our literal minds. He also knew there would be poetic people and all the kinds of people. It is wrotten for all of us. Don't get me wrong though, there is a specific way  not to interpret the Bible and a specific way to interpret it. The wrong way, is to just read and make up what we think it means - hence much confusion , a lot fo people do this - the right way is to read it being guided by the fathers of the church and apostles - ie the closer to the source the better - how Jesus interpreted it, called Tradition, which is handed down sometimes written, sometimes spoken by the Church. Once you read it that way in that structured and ordered manner.... it's pretty powerful. Try this for starters on the Psalms - Commentary on the Psalms - St. Robert Bellarmine or this on the gosples The great commentary of Cornelius à Lapide : Lapide, Cornelius à, 1567-1637 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I love the rules and structure of the Catholic faith (very different from other Christians) and like you hate the 'cherry picking'. I want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 

Hi Little Owl,

I'm glad you're enjoying this thread and sorry to hear you've become so afraid, I think this fear is common, ND people can not only take things very literally but very seriously too.

I've always found the Bible a very contradictory document, especilly when taken in context with the Old Testament, I thought Jesus was offering a new begining and previous slates wiped clean? There's also contradictions about what Jesus actually said and what he meant by what he said, like 'many mansions has my fathers house' and " the only way to the kingdom of heaven is through me", (sorry if I misquoted there, but thats the jist of it}. The many mansions of my fathers house has often been inturpreted to mean that there are many heavens, does this mean there's a heaven for catholics, protestants, jehovas witnesses etc along with some for other faiths? Why would there need to be many mansions, will the antipathy to other christian sects coninue in the afterlife?

I can't be doing with the lack of the divine feminine in many Christian sects or the emasculated figure of Mary, forever sorrowing the loss of her son. I can't see why gay people should be so reviled either, if god is love then why should who you choose to love matter? It all seems to be very hetronormative and rigid.

I've read quite a bit on the history of the church, I had to as part of my degree and choose to read further. What was practiced at the dawn of Christianity seems very different to how it was practiced after becoming the oficial religion of Rome, obviously things developed over the 350 years between the crusifiction and it becomeing an official religion, one fo the bigest changes seems to have been the melding of traditional Roman public holidays and it's beaurocracy and laws, what had been Roman civil law grew into cannon law.

The church in general has always been too violent and war like for me, by the 5th and 6th centuries it seems that ignorance way becoming highly valued and some Christians were behaving like the Taliban, the fate of Hypatia of Alexandria was a low point and absolutely horrible, a terrible thing to do to such a brilliant woman or to anyone for that matter. Her story is worth knowing about, but it has to come with a trigger warning. Then there's the horrors of the Crusades, the terrible treatment of Jews, the Witch Trials, the terrible things done to the Templars, and all the deathd because people believed differently or their  physical features were thought to be signs of divine displeasure.

All this from a religion thats supposed to be about love, I think we could all hoped to be spared that sort of love!

This is a really interesting post TheCatWoman I never had a faith of any sort when I was young. I then became a Christian (I looked into the Christian faith simply because I was Christened as a baby because it was the normal thing to do in my family). I developed a more spiritual side to myself but as I explored my new faith more, I became more and more confused. I felt like some aspects of the bible were taken very seriously and literally, but others were overlooked or ignored. We were told that the bible was the word of God but then it was interpreted in ways that I didn't understand. Why was being Gay so awful but we were allowed female vicars (despite the bible saying women shouldn't be teachers). Not that I'm saying that we shouldn't have female vicars, of course we should, but I also think people should be able to love who they love without all the hate and judgement from church. I realised that church wasn't for me, I am too literal. I didn't like the 'cherry picking' and 'interpreting' to suit someone's own opinions. And to take the bible literally wasn't something I was comfortable with either, there's so much discrimination and sexism that I couldn't accept. I still believe there is a God and I still believe in aspects of the Christian faith but I don't want to accept organised 'religion' as part of my life anymore, I am happy with my personal faith and spirituality. I would like to explore my spirituality more but to be honest, the teachings I have had about heaven and hell, judgement etc have scared me and I feel fear around considering other faiths or beliefs now. I wonder if it is teachings like this that many of us had as children (through school, scouts / guides etc) that stops people from exploring beyond the faith they were 'born into' or bought up with?

This is a really interesting post TheCatWoman I never had a faith of any sort when I was young. I then became a Christian (I looked into the Christian faith simply because I was Christened as a baby because it was the normal thing to do in my family). I developed a more spiritual side to myself but as I explored my new faith more, I became more and more confused. I felt like some aspects of the bible were taken very seriously and literally, but others were overlooked or ignored. We were told that the bible was the word of God but then it was interpreted in ways that I didn't understand. Why was being Gay so awful but we were allowed female vicars (despite the bible saying women shouldn't be teachers). Not that I'm saying that we shouldn't have female vicars, of course we should, but I also think people should be able to love who they love without all the hate and judgement from church. I realised that church wasn't for me, I am too literal. I didn't like the 'cherry picking' and 'interpreting' to suit someone's own opinions. And to take the bible literally wasn't something I was comfortable with either, there's so much discrimination and sexism that I couldn't accept. I still believe there is a God and I still believe in aspects of the Christian faith but I don't want to accept organised 'religion' as part of my life anymore, I am happy with my personal faith and spirituality. I would like to explore my spirituality more but to be honest, the teachings I have had about heaven and hell, judgement etc have scared me and I feel fear around considering other faiths or beliefs now. I wonder if it is teachings like this that many of us had as children (through school, scouts / guides etc) that stops people from exploring beyond the faith they were 'born into' or bought up with?

Some aspects of your experience of the Christian faith are similar to mine Little Owl.

I used to be a Catholic Christian who felt ‘at home’ with some of the contradictions in the Bible because they could be explained by things like translation, authorship, intended audience, purpose of writing, dating of passage, or even dating of just a sentence inserted in a passage. Some writings were intended to be historical (yet may have only some known historically accurate elements ) other writings were intended to be understood as parables, allegories, teaching, sayings etc. A passage could be understood on different levels, yet sometimes nothing could explain it. 

Regarding hell, it used to frighten the ‘bejesus’ (said in an Irish accent) out of me. Later I learned that there is no official church statement about the actual damnation of any individual human being. The fact that the Catholic Church hopes that all people will be saved and go to heaven was a revelation to me. 

I gradually lost faith in Christianity because it has never satisfactorily explained the problem of evil and suffering, and other religions do not have a satisfactory answer either. Misogyny is alive and kicking within the Catholic Church, notably in the hierarchy, but it is also in other Christian denominations. The treatment of LGBTQ+ people has been disgusting, and it isn’t much better now.

These days I am agnostic. Apart from a few funerals, I haven’t been in a church building for years. Yet I continue to be inspired by the Gospel accounts of ‘Jesus the Radical’. He changed the lives of the marginalised, the poor, and those afflicted by all sorts of mental and physical illnesses. He was a brave man who didn’t hide within buildings filled with priceless treasures, surrounded by impregnable walls. I don’t believe he was God, but I do believe he was a selfless  person who knew he was risking his life for the sake of others. 

I wish you peace, and if you decide to explore your spirituality further, I hope you receive strength and consolation on the journey.  

DaughteroftheKing said:

there is a specific way  not to interpret the Bible and a specific way to interpret it. The wrong way, is to just read and make up what we think it means

This is the source of many of my issues with organised religion as this approach is saying "the church has interprited the bible in the way we think is right and anyone else is wrong".

The church then uses its organisation (ie preachers) to pass down this approach to the masses, effectively spreading this very specific interpritation.

When you see how often the interpritation has changed through time you start to realise how often the church was wrong or how they have simply updated the interpritation to avoid losing "market share" or to push the agenda of the day.

This starts to show that the church is much less about the word of god but about the business of the church - how to keep itself in power, keep the believers coming to them and to keep the coffers full.

My grandfather worked in the church and explained to me some of the machinery of the business of the church and it is really just a big corporation behind the scenes.

This is a big part of why I think faith is a great thing but organised religion is not.

You should try the Catholic faith, we have the magesterium which interprets the Bible the same as the apostes and the fahers of the church. We don't have female ministers and never will have, because Jesus did not choose females to be priests, despite their being very loyal holy woman in his followers. Being 'gay' is not a sin, but acting on those disordered feeling is. May 'gay' catholics live a holy celibate life. No person is bad or evil, it is merely that they do bad or evil things. All of which can be forgiven by God should they ask. Just to note the Bible is both literal and not, there are several ways to interpret it - all of them are worthy. God knew there would be autistic perople, He created us and He knows and respects our literal minds. He also knew there would be poetic people and all the kinds of people. It is wrotten for all of us. Don't get me wrong though, there is a specific way  not to interpret the Bible and a specific way to interpret it. The wrong way, is to just read and make up what we think it means - hence much confusion , a lot fo people do this - the right way is to read it being guided by the fathers of the church and apostles - ie the closer to the source the better - how Jesus interpreted it, called Tradition, which is handed down sometimes written, sometimes spoken by the Church. Once you read it that way in that structured and ordered manner.... it's pretty powerful. Try this for starters on the Psalms - Commentary on the Psalms - St. Robert Bellarmine or this on the gosples The great commentary of Cornelius à Lapide : Lapide, Cornelius à, 1567-1637 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I love the rules and structure of the Catholic faith (very different from other Christians) and like you hate the 'cherry picking'. I want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 

Hi Little Owl,

I'm glad you're enjoying this thread and sorry to hear you've become so afraid, I think this fear is common, ND people can not only take things very literally but very seriously too.

I've always found the Bible a very contradictory document, especilly when taken in context with the Old Testament, I thought Jesus was offering a new begining and previous slates wiped clean? There's also contradictions about what Jesus actually said and what he meant by what he said, like 'many mansions has my fathers house' and " the only way to the kingdom of heaven is through me", (sorry if I misquoted there, but thats the jist of it}. The many mansions of my fathers house has often been inturpreted to mean that there are many heavens, does this mean there's a heaven for catholics, protestants, jehovas witnesses etc along with some for other faiths? Why would there need to be many mansions, will the antipathy to other christian sects coninue in the afterlife?

I can't be doing with the lack of the divine feminine in many Christian sects or the emasculated figure of Mary, forever sorrowing the loss of her son. I can't see why gay people should be so reviled either, if god is love then why should who you choose to love matter? It all seems to be very hetronormative and rigid.

I've read quite a bit on the history of the church, I had to as part of my degree and choose to read further. What was practiced at the dawn of Christianity seems very different to how it was practiced after becoming the oficial religion of Rome, obviously things developed over the 350 years between the crusifiction and it becomeing an official religion, one fo the bigest changes seems to have been the melding of traditional Roman public holidays and it's beaurocracy and laws, what had been Roman civil law grew into cannon law.

The church in general has always been too violent and war like for me, by the 5th and 6th centuries it seems that ignorance way becoming highly valued and some Christians were behaving like the Taliban, the fate of Hypatia of Alexandria was a low point and absolutely horrible, a terrible thing to do to such a brilliant woman or to anyone for that matter. Her story is worth knowing about, but it has to come with a trigger warning. Then there's the horrors of the Crusades, the terrible treatment of Jews, the Witch Trials, the terrible things done to the Templars, and all the deathd because people believed differently or their  physical features were thought to be signs of divine displeasure.

All this from a religion thats supposed to be about love, I think we could all hoped to be spared that sort of love!