Feeling responsible for things you can’t control

You have nothing to apologise for as it is not your doing and a few bad actors don’t reflect the nation. Sometimes I wonder if the more extreme elements make their views more visible to travellers than perhaps the moderate population. In the UK these sort of people seem to get more airtime on TV, or is that also a trick of the mind? I think we can be deceived into thinking such views are prevalent. 

Any coherent society, that has a set of socially enforced shared values (whatever they might be) I have realised, is going to have people who are excluded from full participation because they simply don't or won't fit in with the dominant paradigm. 

My particular form of Autism involves a certain amount of "Mis-agreeableness" so I expect to have issues myself fitting in with whatever society I find myself confronted with.

We all really want to live in a "high trust" society simply because there's less car alarms going off, you don't always NEED to lock your doors, etc. or carry bunches of keys that a jailer would envy. 

A high trust society is SUPERIOR to a low trust society such as one might find in less civilised parts of the world. 

The question is how do we get there, (or maintain the remains of the one that we have) without being beastly to a sub group? 

Emmalephant said:

You seem to have had some pretty bad luck with the people you had to interact with. 

Frankfurt was essentially a small town taken over by all the big banks (including the European Central Banks) with their headquarters so there was a huge influx of foreigners to what was a very white, traditional German town in the 1990s or thereabouts.

My neighbours were of my grandparents generation in both places i lived while there and they were always mumbling "this town used to be so nice..." when they thought I couldn't understand them.

The staff I worked with were great, but the culture in the banks was hugely mixed so they got to meet loads of us and most were real professionals.

The guy from Munich was still on probation and working for me (not my hire) but was young and full of his own opinions, blue eyed and blonde haired and was every inch a right wing extremist. I tolerated his views until they crossed the line into a crime as they were otherwise not affecting his work.

About half the team was British and 2 of them were black (plus out boss was Indian) so for him to be so openly racist was a shock.

Luckily he was a rarity and swiftly dispatched.

The locals had seen their town changed from a sleepy town into a banking megatropolis full of foreigners so I can understand some of their disdain - we had changed the character of the place they knew all their lives. Unpleasant but understandable, especially as they were of an age that could have witnessed some of the war at least.

I know some truly wonderful Germans and my nephiew is engaged to a German girl now so I'm hoping for an invite to the wedding, and her family are really nice.

I guess it is much like England - there are racist people in most groups but only the stupid ones let it be known.

I’m sorry that you had such a negative experience. I apologise on behalf of those who can’t behave properly. A broad mass of Germans is however rather tolerant and welcoming towards all kinds of people. Hopefully, you’ll be able to meet the right people one day. You seem to have had some pretty bad luck with the people you had to interact with. 

I Sperg said:

We are being FORCED to transition from a series of European monolithic cultures into a different type of society entriely.

Hasn't this happened numerous times through history with different wars, invasions, resettlements etc resulting in the people in any particular region being quite a mix anyway?

Admittedly most were broadly Caucasian as long distance travel was less common until last century but there were arabic and black influences throughout southern and south-eastern Europe from the various trade interactions and invasions since the middle ages.

Borders have been redrawn time and again, pupulation groups moved (or in some cases nearly exterminated) and all sorts of influences have been felt so for Germany to consider itself any sort of monolothic culture is clearly a fabrication by someone with an agenda.

Where I live in Sao Paulo there are huge immigrant populations of Jews, Syrians, Japanese, Italians, Portuguese, Germans, Koreans and Bolivians to name just the largest groups.

The city is a real cultural melting pot but there is little racial antagonisation other than the rich white classes largely hating everybody else. I wonder if it could be a similar thing going on in Germany?

I lived in Frankfurt for 3 years and found the inherent racism in a large part of the German population to be quite shocking - there were plenty of those welcoming to hard working outsiders but my Brazilian wife got so much hate for her exotic looks and appearance that she preferred to stay back in the UK.

The people I knew from the South of Gernany were even worse - I fired one guy from Muich who insisted on tellng me I was stupid for hiring a black guy in the team as "they are just like monkeys" was his reasoning. I fired him on the spot once I verified someone else had heard this too as a witness.

I'm afraid Germany and racial purity issues are something I think need to be allowed to dilute to break that Ayrian mindset.

I Sperg said:

A process it seems, akin to taking down a thousand year old tapestry which depicts the history of european peoples and staining it a uniform shade of light brown.. 

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/

Thanks for your input (and please believe me that I really mean that and am sincere when saying this). I can, however, not agree with your view on the AfD. As a queer woman and someone who struggles with social norms, I am especially convinced that I will never support such a party. You don’t have to engage in torchlit parades to hurt the values of our constitution. Our government didn’t do everything right in the past, but many things were not preventable without going against those values, so I’d choose this part over a right one again and again. For context: There are several people in the AfD that show rhetorics once used by facists (e.g. Bernd Höcke), the party is under observation because of their actions and statements, they constantly spread blunt misinformation and there even was a scandal around a conference mainly visited by their members that was horrifically similar to the Wannensee-conference in its rhetorics and discussions (sorry for the drastic simile). 

Thank you nonetheless for answering, it’s important to keep an open dialogue flowing in every direction.

It's difficult to read that and not pass comment. I travelled to a particular place in Germany pretty much every year between 2002 and 2016, and have watched the area I go to change, in my opinion for the worse, in exactly the same way I watched my own country collapse 30 years previously.

It really does appear like the same malign political influence having done my country (England) first, then turned it's attention to Germany!

Haltern Am See when I first went there was a high trust, clean and very orderly little place, like the Soilhull that I remember from the sixties.

In a nutshell, clean, polite and civilised. The whole place was easy on the eye, no graffiti, clean & well maintained streets with actual cigarette vending machines at the end of the street that were not vandalised AND the people seemed very invested in keeping it that way.

In short, I felt like I needed to up my own personal game if I was not to be a "visiting barbarian". 

Each time I went there (particularly in the early years) I took copius photos and you can see the year that the grafitti started to appear, when the roads stopped being cleaned to a high standard, when hooded and swarthy looking creatures who CLEARLY were not the good people of Haltern started to be seen prowling the streets at night and the shops started to up their "Security measures" and finally, the point where even the cigarette vending machines became uneconomical to operate.

I am putting forwards my own (very unpopular) observations, because whilst the first time I witnessed "the process of transformation" unfolding in front of me and sucking out the QUALITY from the society in which I was immersed, I was easily convinced by those who can function linguistically better than I can manage, that I was the problem, and that my vision was inferior to theirs. 

SEEING EXACTLY THE SAME PROCESS unfold in front of me as an observer in a different country, seeing the same arguments being made to push the agenda, and the demonisation of dissenting opinion, as both "quality of life" and "standard of living" plummet for the hapless indigenous inhabitants whilst their leaders deny, deflect & blamecast was too much to endure again, so I don't go there any more. 

Instead of being a unique and lovely place to go, as it was when I first went there, Haltern Am See became a lot more like the land I had just left, due to I have to assume, poor political leadership.Just as happened in England. 

We are being FORCED to transition from a series of European monolithic cultures into a different type of society entriely.

A process it seems, akin to taking down a thousand year old tapestry which depicts the history of european peoples and staining it a uniform shade of light brown.. 

The most frightening thing though, is that pretty much anyone who really tries to whomp up a better way of doing things, (Which is where an intelligent mind goes after realising that everything is getting messed up) runs up against the enormity of the problem. 

It's really, really easy to complain about falling social and living standards, but MUCH harder to work out what is the right path that you should be on.

Your much maligned "Alternative For Germany" party isn't having torchlit parades in the street, and it's leadership isn't wearing the hugo boss uniforms either, they are just a party that represents a section of the german population that likes and admires the orderly Gerrman culture and way of doing things that make places like Haltern Am See pretty and worth worth visiting...  

I’m in N. Ireland so I vote in three types of election. Firstly the N. Ireland Assembly election is meant to happen every five years, but has happened more often from 2016 which was followed by 2017, 2019 and 2024. We have power sharing and politicians tend to be Nationalist - largely in favour of a United Ireland or Unionist - largely in favour of remaining part of the UK. Then there is the Alliance Party which attracts both Unionist and Nationalist voters because they say they are concerned firstly with the good of our province. There are usually a few independent assembly candidates who may be Unionist or Nationalist,  plus we have the Green Party. Each party would have elements  loosely similar to the UK left, centre or right leanings, but that isn’t always the case. We use a form of PR (proportional representation) called STV (single transferable vote). 

Secondly, there are the UK Parliamentary elections every five years. each area votes for one candidate only. We do not have Conservative/Labour/Liberal/Reform politics here (yet!). The Council elections are every four years and voting is by STV. 

We also have to balance the dynamics peacekeeping following the relatively recent ‘troubles’ that affected every single person of my generation. Brexit and the Irish Sea border means that some suppliers in Great Britain do not want to send food products to us because of the extra customs paperwork and resulting costs. I can no longer buy my dog’s favourite treat that I used to get directly from the manufacturer in England. 

Iain said:

Have you considered the legitimacy of the party actually in power?

Every party currently in the N. Ireland Assembly has been democratically elected by a turnout of 63.6%. I take your point and would agree.  I would like to see an official option for non voters to record ‘No vote’. It would give non voters a chance to enter the political debate and distinguish them from the ‘I can’t be bothered/I don’t care’ voter. 

Iain said:

curious as to to cost/reward basis this effort/stress produces

I don’t think about balancing cost/reward and effort/stress as I would not be who I am if I started thinking about that. Perhaps I am coming across as spending more time than I am on analysing the political situation here and around the world. I know I am consuming too much news for the good of my mental health, and I have already begun to cut down, but the dynamics of politics in N. Ireland means that my vote is firstly a vote saying yes I want an elected representative in a N. Ireland Assembly, rather than be ruled directly from Westminster. Local politicians make local decisions. This is a priority for most of the voting public here, whether Unionist, `nationalist or whatever, because for too long, we didn’t have an Assembly because one political party walked out, and the rules say the assembly can’t continue without the party that happened to have the majority vote. Peace requires give and take here, so I will vote for people who are solution driven, rather than those who say no .. 

If I lived in GB, I don’t know how I would vote. I probably would be centre left politically, but for sure I would struggle as the politicians on the left appear to me ineffective in all manner of decision making, and that is giving ammunition to countries elsewhere. 

I could go on much longer but you get the idea. I want a peaceful society for all, Unionist, Nationalist or whatever. A fairer society for those with little and who do not see any way out, wealth to increase equitably. Good relationships with neighbouring countries….  Idealistic yes, but worth voting. 

It dosen't matter who you vote for the bl00dy government always get in!, Most of the time it feels like this, but some elections seem more important than others.

I've never felt represented by any government, council or party, and I know I'm not alone in this, I often feel like, 'why should I bother?'

ArchaeC said:

it’s easy to know - but not easy to really know

That sums it up quite perfectly. Thanks for putting this paradox into words! 

We’re all just doing our best and I can already tell that you’re a very intelligent and reflecting person. I’ll try my best to just follow your example.

ArchaeC said:

so that I can make informed and conscientious voting decisions

When and how often will you vote?

I'm genuinely curious as to to cost/reward basis this effort/stress produces.

I applaud you for taking such diligence in your responsibilities as a voter.

ArchaeC said:

I struggle with disinformation/lies/untruths that seems to permeate some political decisions,

Have you considered the legitimacy of the party actually in power?

A few facts from Wikipedia or the governments election stats on their own websites:

population of the UK 66 million approx (from 2022 - the most accurate currently)

registered voters = 48.2 million

people who actually voted (at 60% turnout) = 28.92 million

percentage who voted labour in total = 34%

so 20% of the electorate voted labour or only 15% of the population.

Hardly a strong mandate and certainly a damning statistic about how effective the electoral is at present.

I feel I have a duty to be informed and to keep up with developments at home and abroad. It is a huge responsibility not to be ignorant of the things that are behind certain political shifts and swings so that I can make informed and conscientious voting decisions. This weighs heavily on me especially approaching election time, and is complicated by decisions regarding whether or not to vote tactically.

Emmalephant said:

Does anyone else sometimes feel responsible for things that are rationally far too big for one person to carry?

Often I am grateful that someone else is making the huge decisions that will affect every person in the country and have repercussions for the rest of the world. You too know that it is not your responsibility alone to change the course of politics, yet you feel the burden of making the right and moral decision when voting. I keep reminding myself that it is not my responsibility - it’s easy to know - but not easy to really know. 

Nobody can ask any more of you than for you to make an informed decision, and from what you have said, you are conscientious and doing your best. These are worrying times, and there is much debate about us entering a new world order. I struggle with disinformation/lies/untruths that seems to permeate some political decisions, but I have no option but to try to remain detached. Not easy and not always successful.

You're lucky in that you feel you have several parties who stand for something positive, I don't feel that here in the UK, all options feel bad and that an election is a choice between bad and worse, I would love to vote positively for someone, not as a desperate attempt to keep the worst at bay.

What I find terrible is that many of those who are of a more populist/right wing persausion, never engage with politics and political issues, never watch or listen to the news, don't even engage with it on social media. I think it a good thing that many of these people don't vote either.

I do understand the feeling of the world being on your shoulders and there are plenty of people around who will help you feel that way, I get it from all the people who've told me Suffragettes died for me to have the right to vote and I ought to vote. Then they usually tell me I've voted for the "wrong" party, as in a small party who is never going to become the government. It's just another way of bullying and gas lighting as far as I'm concerned

In local elections most are independents with thier own agendas and when and if you can find them and question them, a whole nasty can of worms is opened.

I wish you luck tomorrow.

You can only do what you feel is right. Maybe join a group of similar minded people that have a similar goals. This could be improving your local area (environmental clean up) or something with a wider scope.

Luckily there are several parties that, in my opinion, do stand for something positive or at least for the concept of something positive rather than just being the lesser evil. But it can easily feel like this because nothing has been really changing for the better recently. It is nice to hear that I’m not actually being ridiculous by feeling this way.

Do you (or someone else) have advice on how to catch a break from this feeling of responsibility from time to time?

It's often difficult to separate yourself from much of what is happening in the world. The rise of nationalism and isolationism is worrying.

We can only stand for what we believe is right. You can worry about the bigger picture but when you feel like an insignificant pixel it can be overwhelming. One voice and one vote can make a difference. In politics it always seems you're voting for the lesser evil rather than something positive. In the UK I'd love to have a socially responsible government that radically improves the lives of the general population but the books have to balance, so who will end up paying for it.

The media and weak leadership should take full responsibility for what they have either created or have allowed to thrive.

Some sections of society seem to blindly follow what they are told irrespective of what they see around them, the MAGA movement in the States being the prime example.