MMR @ 3years, safe for my autistic son???

I don't think bumping 10 year old anti-vax conspiracy nonsense is a helpful thing. 

Hi IntenseWorld,

I know this post is 10 years old and probably will not get back to you, nevertheless, I wanted to hear your opinion if you would give MMR first dose to a 4 year autistic child?

thanks

Paull said:

Putting any unnatural substance into the body usually has side effects, the level of which depends on the health of the person. To say categorically that a certain drug/chemical/toxin introduced into the body was not responsible for a later health problem seems irrational as each person reacts differently although there is a common reaction.

There's no such thing as an unnatural substance; all susbtances are made from things that occur in nature. Whether a thing is biological or synthetic in origin is of no use in determining whether it's safe: many lethal poisons are purely biological in origin, and many synthetic substances don't react with the human body at all.

Of course one individual may have a highly idiosyncratic and potentially negative response to almost anything, including a vaccine. But we would only say that there way a link between a particular treatment and a particular condition if the connection could be repeatably demonstrated. This is an important aspect of the scientific method - doing all we can to distinguish causal links from coincidences.

Alex R (still posting personally)

I was not saying that no reaction is categorically ruled out; to suggest this would be preposterous and wrong. No medicine is without potential side effects, vaccines included. But the evidence shows that vaccines do not cause the complex neurological condition of autism. This is the established, Scientific consensus, based upon sound evidence.

Putting any unnatural substance into the body usually has side effects, the level of which depends on the health of the person. To say categorically that a certain drug/chemical/toxin introduced into the body was not responsible for a later health problem seems irrational as each person reacts differently although there is a common reaction.

In what way is the parellel incorrect in your opinion?

I disagree and I think the parallel you have drawn is incorrect.

But there is 'categorical', substantiated proof, that vaccines do not cause autism. Just as we can categorically conclude that smoking is bad for you.

Thank you Anil, my only intention is to ensure people are aware of all sides, and yes that means even the discredited ones.  That's the only way to get the full picture, I am indeed open-minded, I have no agenda.  People are free to believe what they want of course.  I just cannot understand people being so stuck to one way of thinking without there being categorical proof either way.

There's been complaints about heavy handed moderation before, so I'm going to let this thread continue, it's an important issue certainly. 

I would like to remind everyone Alex is posting here in a personal capacity and is not representing the NAS. I however will continue to be acting as a neutral moderator and an employee of the NAS. 

With that in mind,  Alex, please refrain from making unjustifed assumptions about IntenseWorld. 

I didn't mention official websites or governments. I went to the actual scientific findings.

Of course, you should feel free to produce peer-reviewed papers supporting your position, but I don't believe there are any. Sites with beguiling names mentioning 'liberty' and 'underground' are easy to set up and completely unregulated. But aside from one highly unusual case from Italy (which is also where seismologists were convicted for failing to prevent deaths in an earthquake) I am not aware of any legal rulings which have upheld a causal link between vaccination and autism.

It doesn't sound like you're impartial or open-minded, IntenseWorld. It sounds like you're dedicated to promoting the false and damaging idea that the MMR vaccine causes autism. Let me repeat: it is scientific research, checked and re-checked by scientists in many countries, which has shown that there is no substantiated link here. This isn't something handed down by governments or pushed by some absurd conspiracy. It's science. Repeatable, testable, independently verifiable science.

And every child who could be vaccinated and isn't is placed at risk, and places others at risk, of fatal diseases.

Alex R (still posting personally)

Because official websites will always take the same stance as governments, sometimes you need to root around for the lesser known websites to come to a fuller conclusion.  That doesn't mean any website which is not "official" is a quackery website.  You might like to read this:

http://www.undergroundhealth.com/courts-quietly-confirm-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism/

"But in recent months, courts, governments and vaccine manufacturers have quietly conceded the fact that the Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine most likely does cause autism and stomach diseases. Pharmaceutical companies have even gone so far as to pay out massive monetary awards, totaling in the millions, to the victims in an attempt to compensate them for damages and to buy their silence."

and

In December 2012, two landmark decisions were announced that confirmed Dr. Wakefield’s original concern that there is a link between the MMR vaccine, autism and stomach disorders. The news went mostly unreported, but independent outlets like The Liberty Beacon finally began publishing the groundbreaking news."

I'm sure you and others that pooh-pooh the MMR/autism link will pooh-pooh this website, but sometimes, when things persist it's because there is more to it than you are aware.

I was open-minded. Then I examined the evidence, like a scientist, and realised that there was more than enough to come to a pretty firm conclusion: while no vaccine is strictly 100% safe, almost all currently used vaccines are many orders of magnitude safer than leaving your child vulnerable to disease transmission (and exposing others, including those with compromised immune systems, to that same risk). And in particular, there is not now, nor ever has been, any credible mechanism by which autism could be caused by vaccination.

Open-mindedness is great. But it shouldn't mean remaining undecided on issues where there is ample evidence on which to base a rational conclusion.

Alex R (still posting personally)

It's not necessarily his claim I am listening to (I remain open minded), I believe in giving people a fair chance to explain, if people investigated it more they would see there is more to it than has been widely publicised.  Mud sticks, once it's been thrown people don't see the wood for the trees.

IntenseWorld said:

It's not only Andrew Wakefield who has said it though, and even if he used unscientific methods that doesn't mean this alone can be a sole reason that there is no truth in what he said.  If you read the article I posted about him higher up the thread he explains more about his situation.

Why would you give a moment's credence to a scientific claim made by someone whose methods are so unscientific he's been struck off?

The study of autism is a science. If we don't need to use scientific methods to make claims about it, why should I take Wakefield more seriously than the person on the street corner? He has no special claim to truth or believability here, and in fact, quite the reverse.

And again - he took children's blood, and gave them colonoscopies, without proper medical consent. I can't think why anyone would trust such a person to write a shopping list, much less a scientific paper.

Alex R (still posting personally)

It's not only Andrew Wakefield who has said it though, and even if he used unscientific methods that doesn't mean this alone can be a sole reason that there is no truth in what he said.  If you read the article I posted about him higher up the thread he explains more about his situation.

IntenseWorld said:

I have not stated that MMR causes autism, I have advised researching and knowing all sides to be able to reach a balanced decision.  I am well aware, having 2 children who are both on the spectrum as well as myself, that autism has at least some genetic element (incidentally, both my children had MMR and I knew nothing about a purported link with autism then).

I think it's important to understand that knowing all sides of an argument does not mean giving them all equal weight. Speaking personally (and not in a professional capacity) I would trust the overwhelming scientific majority, rather than a former doctor who has been struck off for grossly unprofessional behaviour, and who conducted his research in part by bribing children at a birthday party for blood samples. (Wakefield also gave children unnecessary colonoscopies without proper medical approval, which makes my blood run cold.)

There is, simply, no reliable or credible evidence whatsoever for any link between MMR and autism. It saddens me that charities and medical professionals have to waste time, effort and money fighting this theory rather than getting on with the main job in hand. And the consequences of non-vaccination are clear, as can be seen from the relatively recent measles outbreak in Wales and the death of one of the victims there.

Alex R (whose views expressed here are solely personal)

Yes.  People need to not be so eager to believe research that is publicised because I think there is research that isn't publicised too and even research that is publicised can be selective in which parts it divulges.  Also, research is only undertaken by interested parties funding it, otherwise it doesn't happen.  How on earth can you ever have the whole picture that way.

There is a lot that goes on that powers that be deem Joe Public does not deserve to know.  (after all, we have to know what's good for us and "the greater good" doesn't always mean the greater good from our perspective).

An open mind and a search engine may be your only ally when those powers are not telling all.

This might interest:

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/09/12/22-blmedical-studies-that-show-vaccines-can-cause-autism/#_

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2012/09/07/rob-schneider-speaks-out-against-vaccines/

People should never just blindly accept just because those that would have you do so are in positions of power.

I have not stated that MMR causes autism, I have advised researching and knowing all sides to be able to reach a balanced decision.  I am well aware, having 2 children who are both on the spectrum as well as myself, that autism has at least some genetic element (incidentally, both my children had MMR and I knew nothing about a purported link with autism then).

What I do believe, is that:

• vaccinations can contain substances which can negatively affect the human body.
• vaccinations seem to trigger reactions in some children which have overnight resulted in autistic symptoms/autism
• some people may be genetically vulnerable to vaccine reactions and it may be that without a substance entering their body that their condition would not have developed
• governments and big pharma collude to hide negative effects from vaccinations
• too many vaccinations in one go on babies and small children could be having far-reaching effects that we cannot understand
• cocktails of vaccinations may overload the immune system (autism appears to have a link to the immune system)
• governments do scapegoat people who try to whistleblow
• it pays to be open-minded
• it pays to do your research!

This is what I do believe.

IntenseWorld said:

For any vaccination that contains thimerosal:

http://www.epa.gov/hg/effects.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_faqs.html

There are two, very different, types of mercury which people should know about: methylmercury and ethylmercury.

Thimerosal contains a different form of mercury called ethylmercury. Studies comparing ethylmercury and methylmercury suggest that they are processed differently in the human body. Ethylmercury is broken down and excreted much more rapidly than methylmercury. Therefore, ethylmercury (the type of mercury found in the influenza vaccine) is much less likely than methylmercury (the type of mercury in the environment) to accumulate in the body and cause harm.

Note that it does not say not at all likely.  These are only snippets, please click the link to see all the information for the full picture.  See more scientific information which basically says the usual method of analysis may be invalid and they don't actually know.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280369/

However, the proportion of inorganic mercury in the brain was much higher in the thimerosal group (21–86% of total mercury) compared to the methylmercury group (6–10%). Brain concentrations of inorganic mercury were approximately twice as high in the thimerosal group compared to the methylmercury group. Inorganic mercury remains in the brain much longer than organic mercury, with an estimated half-life of more than a year. It’s not currently known whether inorganic mercury presents any risk to the developing brain.

Given these findings, the researchers caution that risk assessments for thimerosal based on studies using blood mercury measurements may not be valid, depending on the design of the study.

The researchers emphasize, however, that the risks associated with low-level exposures to inorganic mercury in the developing brain are unknown, and they describe other research linking persistent inorganic mercury exposure with increased activation of microglia in the brain, an effect recently reported in children with autism. They recommend further research focused specifically on the biotransformation of thimerosal and its neurotoxic potential.

Firstly, you are quoting from USA websites.  

Secondly, UK childhood vaccines do NOT contain Thimerosal (mercury based preservative), which includes the MMR vaccine.  

So considering that the National Autistic Society is a UK charity, and UK childhood vaccines do not contain Thimerosal, the information above is currently not valid in relation to the routine vaccines given to children in the UK.  

Quoting something that has no bearing on the UK MMR vaccine (which does not contain Thimerosal) is rather pointless and is nothing short of scaremongering based on ignorance.