The fine line between needing to be social and needing solitude.

True Colors: Socalism in short is from each according to ability, to each according to need. People give according to skills, interests, and naturally take what they require for wellbeing - the real needs, which in a socialist society would not be manipulated because spin, dishonesty, corruption, advertising, propaganda would no longer exist. This might sound utopian, but everything is utopian which does not currently exist. The NHS was once utopian!.

Once exploitation and alienation are removed from work, once people are really free, we will see what people are really capable of. All humans are born with curiosity, a desire to manipulate objects and create - born with imagination and a desire to be active. Only people with severe mental illness, brain damage etc lack these desires. And of course our society creates apathy in many people, meaning many people would rather not work - not work, that is, in our current society because of exploitation and low pay.

On the subject of taxes, people on benefits actually pay tax too. And people have rights independent of work - rights that are not earnt, but are based upon being human. Do you think poverty is acceptable?

Money is a Capitalist tool built upon abstractions. It is not based on concrete resources. It is distributed in an anarchical fashion, and money can even be created from thin air. Maybe eventually we won't use money anymore.  The rich will pay through the taxes they owe but currently avoid paying through tax havens etc.

Goatsworshiper: communism was much abused as a concept by stalinism. Genuine communism would actually mean prosperity for all. THat is to say, poverty would be eradicated.

Spektral, the tattoo will hopefully be an empowered scapergoat with the sun decending on to it. The sun will be the Nazi symbol sonnerad/black sun. Each of the sun's rays will have a symbol of blame attached to it. So a pagan symbol, an occult symbol, a pyschology trident (to represent rational), a swastika to represent manipulation/misrepresentation of a symbol. Hopefully this will be done in black and grey and be done in Poland (if I can get the artist to do it). Symbols are not set in stone, Im still reasearching.

LoCommotion, I too have problems on the phone. I struggle with processing (it may be dyslexia or aspergers, I'm not sure). I will avoid the phone at all costs.

Hope, In someways my veiws are similar to comunism, but I wouldn't like the poverty that comunism tends to create. What you say is something as a society we should hope to acheive, even if we can't get there yet.

True Colors, I would rather my taxes went on the things hope mentions. It all might not be practible, but I wan't a government that invests in people and not corperations. I can't think of anything better to spend my taxes on. I'd rather my taxes went towards the things hope mentions rather than killing iraqi's, funding Atos/G4S and other such corperate abominations.

I am similar to Goatworshiper: getting more left wing as I grow older. My views are actually socialist in nature, almost communist!.

I think that everyone has an unconditional right to an occupation (but also the right  not to work - a controversial statement, and for the record I do want to work and most people actually do, but for it to be a positive right there should be no force or coercion); right to decent housing, free leisure facilities, public transport free of charge  (like the NHS), everyone paid enough to live in comfort and prosperity; free association of equals giving according to ability and receiving according to need - no force, no exploitation, no poverty; absolute, positive freedom. I am an atheist, but believe that everyone has a right to believe what they want so long as it does not take hurt other people or the environment. I am also a green fanatic

Goatworshiper said:

Over the last weekend I've had two experiences that have reminded me of this thread:

1, I Went into Comet with my gf to buy a fan. Very very agressive sales tatics used, we were followed around the shop and asked what we wanted etc. The same guy my gf spoke too on the shop floor served us. It looked like a really horrible place to work, loud bad music too. I was completely overwhelmed, If I was alone I's have left.

Upon leaving I did wonder If I ever lost my job and was made to work in one of these places how I would cope. 

2, My sister is getting her twins christened. I suspect I might be asked to be a god parent, so I told my mum I would be knocking em back on grounds of being anti-theist. I've bent over backwards in the past to accomadate other people spiritual beliefs, I just can't do it anymore. Religion makes me feel nervous and uncomfortable. No doubt I'll be seen as being awkward. It didn't go down very well when I sent a letter to the church I was christened in asking to be excommunicated. 

At this point in time I wish I could disassociate myself from the wider world at this point in time.

What a nightmare!  I'd hate to work in one of those kinds of shops.  And I really hate it when I go into a shop and the assistant is staring at me or following me around trying to help me, it makes me feel really uncomfortable and I leave the shop without buying anything.  I avoid these kinds of shops and prefer to go to the supermarket where I can browse even though there is often too much choice and it takes me forever to decide what I want.  Also I don't like shopping with others, always alone.

I once had a job where I was asked to phone up customers and introduce myself to them.  I hated it.  I didn't see the point of this and was sure that I was taking up the customers' time for nothing as I was calling for no particular reason.  I never feel comfortable talking on the phone anyway and I didn't know what to say to them and felt extremely awkward. I find it extemely annoying when a firm calls me to "inform me of a promotion." I tell them that I'm not interested and ask them not to call again.  Way too invasive.  Needless to say I didn't stay long at that job.

As for religion, I'm not religious and it's one of those subjects I avoid unless I know the other person has the same views as me.  Best to agree to disagree.

spektral said:

A friends wife thinks everything is just made of electricity, just oganised in different ways. Iasked her how this works and she said "I don't know, the truth is, no one really knows"...well done, your an idiot....

At least that's closer to the apparent truth than most religions get!

She probably heard that everything is made of energy, and thought "ah, like electricity!" or she watched one of those dumbed down science programs on TV.

Goatworshiper said:

Me too. I think to be honest if I lost my job (and had to have one of those types) or had to survive without the help of my partner I'd be a regular in mental health services. I can cope with poverty to an extent, but poverty combined with annoying job and sensory overload + coping with people wouldnt be good.

same here, I like to think I am quite independant but with certain things the support of a partner is invaluable. I have learnt to live on almost no money in the past so could happily do that again if it ment I didnt have to deal with all that. As we have said before, I am some what envious of people that can do that kind of work and be happy.

Technically, I'm really laid back and respect people's right to believe whatever they want. I have a unsaid rule that: you believe in what you want, dont impose it on me. If you follow that I want challenge you. However if I get made to feel uncomfortable, Im going to challenge you. I do notice when people confess to their religous belief to me, all of there bigotry becomes understandable.

For anything that has logic to it, I would agree with that. I was brought up in an athiest family, nearly all my relatives are athiests too. So religion has been a joke for as long as I can remember even my year 3 RE reports mention how I challenge everything and refuse to accept what they were telling me. Didnt go down well in a C of E primary!

Everyone I know is slowly becoming more right wing too, and I'm becoming more and more left wing. I've become fascinated with the concept of the "Scapegoat" recently, so much so I want to get a tattoo (full arm sleeve) based on the concept. 

In a bizarre way, I feel as though I'm carrying the worlds dogma on my shoulders.

My parent's recently bought burial plot for  and asked if I wanted them to buy me a plot. My reply was: Don't impose your morality on me, Im going up in smoke. Similary they find it perplexing that I agree with Bertrand Russel "when I die I shall rot and none of my ego will remain". What I find odd is that they don;t believe this, they are not religous I must add, but they convieniently want to believe life is eternal.

I think to be honest as I am getting older I am getting more right-wing. i think as youth wains, you become naturally more skeptical and that there is just a natural heirarchy. It is interesting to read that you feel you are going the other way!

The idea of a tattoo based on the concept scapegoating is interesting concept. Do you have any idea how you could visualise the concept?

I  too will be burnt, actually I have said if its possible by the time I die, I would like to be shot into space in some kind of pod. I think the idea of burial is stilll pretty important to a lot of people. The idea that there must be a soul or a second life of some sort helps people deal with the concept of death. I think for us, its hard to fathom the idea having such a different out look on life and death.

PS twitching eye, must be very, very annoyed.

haha thankfully I cant feel it. I am suprised no one else has ever told me about it. She knows when she has annoyed me and im lying saying she hasnt. I would like to start writing down what I am really thinking when people annoy me. Although I think I would end up spending most of my day writing things down.

PS twitching eye, must be very, very annoyed.

spektral said:

I have had conversations with people about jobs like that in the past. I have frankly said to people, I would rather die that have to work in a place like that. I mean that 100% literally, I feel if my life was reduced to that I do not see the point, this often shocks people

Me too. I think to be honest if I lost my job (and had to have one of those types) or had to survive without the help of my partner I'd be a regular in mental health services. I can cope with poverty to an extent, but poverty combined with annoying job and sensory overload + coping with people wouldnt be good.

 Any respect I have for anyone instantly goes out the window if I find out they are religions. It blows my mind how people can still believe in all this nonsense. It is fact, there is no god. No buts or maybes, there is no god, the end. All god is, is a convevient way to explain things that your average person cannot understand or an amazing discovery to replace a dead loved one. You are born, you live, you die, you are just another species on this planet that will one day be extinct just like the dinosaurs. Don't feel like you should have to ad hear to their antiquated rules of life. You are right to say no as you do not follow the same belief system.

Technically, I'm really laid back and respect people's right to believe whatever they want. I have a unsaid rule that: you believe in what you want, dont impose it on me. If you follow that I want challenge you. However if I get made to feel uncomfortable, Im going to challenge you. I do notice when people confess to their religous belief to me, all of there bigotry becomes understandable.

Religion is a funny thing for me, it makes me so angry almost instantly. At the same time I like to challenge them on their beliefs and watch them try to justify it. It normally ends by me really annoying someone, or me having to leave before I explode. My girlfrieind pointed out to me that one of my eyes starts to twitch and she can tell I am shouting at them in my head. 

Very familiar feeling. When I was younger a lot of friends used to not be religous, however as I'm getting older (probably because people are getting closer to the grave) I've noticed people become more religious. Everyone I know is slowly becoming more right wing too, and I'm becoming more and more left wing. I've become fascinated with the concept of the "Scapegoat" recently, so much so I want to get a tattoo (full arm sleeve) based on the concept. 

In a bizarre way, I feel as though I'm carrying the worlds dogma on my shoulders.

My parent's recently bought burial plot for  and asked if I wanted them to buy me a plot. My reply was: Don't impose your morality on me, Im going up in smoke. Similary they find it perplexing that I agree with Bertrand Russel "when I die I shall rot and none of my ego will remain". What I find odd is that they don;t believe this, they are not religous I must add, but they convieniently want to believe life is eternal.

Hi Goatworshiper,

I have had conversations with people about jobs like that in the past. I have frankly said to people, I would rather die that have to work in a place like that. I mean that 100% literally, I feel if my life was reduced to that I do not see the point, this often shocks people as you can image. Working along side sales reps and dealing with the moronic public, no way in hell. This is why I struggled with being employed so much. 

I keenly read the conversation you had with Scorpion I believe it was regarding Dawkins and religion and really wanted to join in but decided not to. I have very strong views on religion and in the last few years have finally had the confidence to openly say what I think. Any respect I have for anyone instantly goes out the window if I find out they are religions. It blows my mind how people can still believe in all this nonsense. It is fact, there is no god. No buts or maybes, there is no god, the end. All god is, is a convevient way to explain things that your average person cannot understand or an amazing discovery to replace a dead loved one. You are born, you live, you die, you are just another species on this planet that will one day be extinct just like the dinosaurs. Don't feel like you should have to ad hear to their antiquated rules of life. You are right to say no as you do not follow the same belief system.

Religion is a funny thing for me, it makes me so angry almost instantly. At the same time I like to challenge them on their beliefs and watch them try to justify it. It normally ends by me really annoying someone, or me having to leave before I explode. My girlfrieind pointed out to me that one of my eyes starts to twitch and she can tell I am shouting at them in my head. 

A friends wife thinks everything is just made of electricity, just oganised in different ways. Iasked her how this works and she said "I don't know, the truth is, no one really knows"...well done, your an idiot....

breathe......

Over the last weekend I've had two experiences that have reminded me of this thread:

1, I Went into Comet with my gf to buy a fan. Very very agressive sales tatics used, we were followed around the shop and asked what we wanted etc. The same guy my gf spoke too on the shop floor served us. It looked like a really horrible place to work, loud bad music too. I was completely overwhelmed, If I was alone I's have left.

Upon leaving I did wonder If I ever lost my job and was made to work in one of these places how I would cope. 

2, My sister is getting her twins christened. I suspect I might be asked to be a god parent, so I told my mum I would be knocking em back on grounds of being anti-theist. I've bent over backwards in the past to accomadate other people spiritual beliefs, I just can't do it anymore. Religion makes me feel nervous and uncomfortable. No doubt I'll be seen as being awkward. It didn't go down very well when I sent a letter to the church I was christened in asking to be excommunicated. 

At this point in time I wish I could disassociate myself from the wider world at this point in time.

Jon said:

[quote][/quote]

Sounds amazing, Ive heard of Ableton I must admit I havent its something Ive never tried. I love listening to music almost every type and i have written some lyrics, I havent actually made the music before though it sounds brilliant would you like to work with music?

...I would like to work with music and I like the idea....but in practise I think the social aspect would be really hard. I somtimes think I would like to do something and give it a go but in doing it i have the realisations that it involves people...... If you havn't made music and would like to then you can get lots of programs (some free) for your computer. If you have an ipad (pricey I know..its on my wishlist ) then there are a whole load of apps. Do you play an instrument? or just write lyrics? I tend to listen to the feeling and sound of a track rather than the specific meaning of lyrics. Although an interpretation of a song might develop with repeated listening. Some of my favourite songs I listen to are a complete lyrical mystery but I know they are ace. Sometimes finding out about the actual songwriter and their life is a complete surprise and dissapointment for some reason.

Hi sorry havent got on here in a while, how u doing? I know exactly what you mean I've had the same problem thinking i'd love to do something but when i try way too many people trying college was a nightmare lol
Yeah i think ill have to have a look at some programs it would be an interesting thing to try :-)
yeah very mind you my sis just got one so id have to borrow hers
 i mainly write lyrics i have played the violin in the past and one of my goals is to learn the piano not very exciting instruments lol yeah i like songs with a good beat and i tend to like different songs depending what mood im in, i like lyrics especially when i feel the same as the feeling in the song. Yeah i think sometimes people just write what sounds good which if you listen to the lyrics and connect with them and think they feel the same, then find out they dont it was just a good line or it rhymed is a huge disappointment.

Hello Nick/0263

If you'd still like to change your community alias please send a quick email here:

webmanager@nas.org.uk

and it should get sorted out.

Thanks.

Sandra

Thanks for the info Scorpion. 

As I understand it, Nick, you can't change your forum ID yourself, but one of the moderators could change it for you.

Thanks for the reassurance, Scorpion. As an aside, I had to chuckle to myself when I read your reply message as it is odd to be referred to as 0263. It reminded me of that programme a number of years ago calledThe Prisoner,starring Patrick McGoohan. I had to quell the urge not to shout out loud, "...I am not a number, I am a free man... :-) Incidentally, I would prefer to be able to use my name but if I remember correctly when I completed the original registration process it didn't give me the option. Do you happen to know how I might be able to change it from a number to a name? Best wishes, Nick.

:puzzled:

I don't believe you have disappointed anyone, 0263. Far from it. You sparked an interesting conversation between Goat' and myself, so thankyou for that.

Sorry to disappoint. You are entitled to your opinion. 

It does depend on the Militant Atheist - they are quite a broad church - but, the more extremely militant wing want to ban all religion from all public, and some also say private, life - at all ages.

For those, it's not so much about 'secularism', as about 'anti-religion'.

Thought Police, if you will.

And whilst I don't think Dawkins is that extreme, he is their poster boy.

My understanding of militant atheism is they want a voice in equal proportion to religous bodies. They don't think a religous person should appear on a panel because they always have. I understand it as, they think religous folk should should be on a panel when it is appropriate.

I don't think they want a religion to stop expressing itself, I think they do however want religous bodies to have far less control. I think the goal is for a neutral society until adulthood. So you can be a monotheist because you want to be, not becuase you are indoctrinated by parents. Another main point being is atheists want law based on science fact and not jewish mysticism.

I got what you meant.

Goatworshiper said:

I am however pleased I was born in a time I can express it, even if the extent of my thoughts are repressed somewhat.

But if the Militant Atheists had their way, one wouldn't be so free to express ones thoughts and beliefs, if ones thoughts were in anyway 'religious' (according to their definition of 'religious').