Are we really a Christian country?

DormouseAtRest_25 said:

As a Country, I believe there remain some such good lessons we might rediscover and re-apply - for the greater benefit of all community.

I would like to see Quaker values being rediscovered in our communities too.

Many of those values are already in our communities but they don’t make headlines. 

I read today about the below 18th century asylum (with the emphasis upon: retreat, shelter, protection, sanctuary, benevolence, plus, supporting a person's ability to recover their self-esteem and self-control), called "The Retreat", which was set up by a Yorkshire Quaker for aiding people with mental health issues.

"The Retreat [York, England] was founded in 1792 by William Tuke, a Yorkshire Quaker, and opened in 1796.

It has the distinction of having been the first establishment in England where mental illness was regarded as something from which a person could recover, and patients were treated with sympathy, respect and dignity.

The Retreat had a profound influence on public opinion, resulting ultimately in fundamental reform of the laws relating to mental illness and its treatment.

It occupies a central place in the history of psychiatry. Every textbook on the subject mentions the unique part played by it in the reshaping of attitudes to people who are mentally ill.

The Retreat opened in 1796 in the countryside outside York. Unlike mental institutions of the time, there were no chains or manacles, and physical punishment was banned.

Treatment was based on personalised attention and benevolence, restoring the self-esteem and self-control of residents.

An early example of occupational therapy was introduced, including walks and farm labouring in pleasant and quiet surroundings.

There was a social environment where residents were seen as part of a large family-like unit, built on kindness, moderation, order and trust.

There was a religious dimension, including prayer. Inmates were accepted as potentially rational beings, who could recover proper social conduct through self-restraint and moral strength.

They were permitted to wear their own clothing, and encouraged to engage in handicrafts, to write, and to read books.

They were allowed to wander freely around The Retreat’s courtyards and gardens, which were stocked with various small domestic animals."

It struck me that, somehow, although the lessons were learned well in the 18th century; since then - "the wheel fell off our wagon" ...more is the shame in recent times.

As a Country, I believe there remain some such good lessons we might rediscover and re-apply - for the greater benefit of all community.

Although these events are historical, when I hear people say things like 'we should be Christian' there's an unspoken "or else" there. Or else what exactly, would they like us converted by sword or gun point? Have wardens to ensure we go to church and if we don't go for a couple of weeks without "good reason" have us fined as has previously happened? Or at worst will we return to the burning times, when disenters will face a horrible and painful death for the good of thier souls?

Ferrosol said:

Making us one of only two countries where religious leaders have a formal say in government, the other being Iran.) Our

Saudi Arabia 

Afghanistan

Vatican City

The king as head of the church and Anglican bishops in the house of lords looks like an architectural hangover from earlier days rather than being reflective of current beliefs - I think the bishops should be removed from the HOL as a matter of urgency, there's no justification for it. It's up to the Anglican church who they have as their head.

That 46% figure for Christianity includes people who automatically tick the box 'Christian' in a cultural sense - that figure  falls every ten years when the census is taken, reflecting a habit common among older people. I remember people saying they were 'CofE' if asked, then quickly moving on. They didn't go to church or even pray, it was just the default response. It seems to be a practice that's the preserve of the elderly these days. 

There's actually been a few non-Christian PMs - our current one is an atheist:

Non-religious Prime Ministers: a history – Humanists UK

We are a Christian country, The King is literally the head of the Anglican Church, Anglican Bishops sit in the house of lords. (Making us one of only two countries where religious leaders have a formal say in government, the other being Iran.) Our public holidays are based around Christianity, until only a few years ago members of the royal family were forbidden to convert to catholicism, we have only had a single non-christian prime minister. (Sunak) 

According to the 2021 census christianity is still the largest religion in the UK at around 46% with people declaring no religion second at 36% 

All the rest is just racist resentment with religion used as an excuse by bigots. 

whomper said:

“Silence is a source of Great Strength.”

True.

As someone who is sometimes situationally mute and struggles for words at the best of times, I've always particularly liked this Lao Tzu quote:

“Silence is a source of Great Strength.”

I think we're post-Christian. I also think we're an inheritor of the philosophy of the classical world (along with the rest of Europe), much of which came to us from the Christian tradition, which was in itself changed by it. I don't think you can deny that we have a Christian heritage, but I think that's fading to a large degree, and I think its historical ubiquity is probably over stated. A lot of Medieval religious practice looks like a tolerated or 'baptised' form of folk belief. In the 19th century, around 50% of the population attended neither church nor chapel.

I'm personally a humanist, but there are certainly aspects of the Christian tradition which inform my humanism. If I were an Indian humanist, it might be aspects of the Hindu tradition. But living in the 21st century and having easy access to a wide range of cultures and philosophies, I can find things from outside the Western religious and philosophical traditions that I find helpful and inspiring, such as the philosophy of Lao Tzu.

I read this today

"British socialist values have deep roots in Christian, particularly nonconformist and Anglican, traditions, which emphasized social justice, the brotherhood of man, and the "common good" long before the rise of secular marxist socialism

. Many early British socialists and Labour Party leaders, including Keir Hardie, cited the New Testament as their primary inspiration, discovering socialist principles within the teachings of Jesus"

www.co-operativeheritage.coop/.../christian-socialism-and-e-v-neale

Free at the point of use systems which the UK has are rare. The norm in most of Europe is for an insurance based system which is heavily subsidised and cost effective, with those on the lowest incomes receiving the highest levels of subsidy or not paying at all.

I would love one with a big log fireplace and pipe organ, just me.

A sign of stability for now. 

"The Prince of Wales is "keen to build a strong and meaningful bond" with the Church of England, a royal aide has said, ahead of the future monarch attending the new Archbishop of Canterbury's official installation this week.":

www.bbc.co.uk/.../cx230em8jg7o

TheCatWoman said:

this is the dark underbelly of Christianity that people don't really like to talk about, the Church Muscular, remember that, the Crusades, conversion by the sword in places like Lituania, Iceland?

How far back to go is not an easily resolved question.

My knowledge of the Crusades isn’t that detailed but I do understand that they were widespread and undeniably brutal on a scale that hasn’t been replicated by other religions. Power and religion out of control and mad. I often wonder how humans, despite obvious fallibility, could inflict such atrocities on innocent people. 

The Anglican Church currently employs some Muslim people who work in areas such as community relationships. There is more of common interest among people and difference in faith practice is inconsequential.

I think it is likely that disestablishment will happen, perhaps in Prince William’s time or later.

I think disestablishement could improve things for minority religions, there might be less pressure to "conform", to put CofE down on forms because it's "normal".

I don't think King Charles's feelings would change and Prince William seems not to be that bothered, so maybe disestablishment will come from him?

America has not state religion and yet seems to be one of the most Christian countries, the only problem is that all the sects disagree and squabble.

I think the populists are mostly on the right or far right of the political spectrum and are using Christianity as a stick to beat others with, I know I don't know the bible that well, but I'm pretty sure that nowhere does it say that people should set fire to hotels for asylum seekers, or march on the streets and threaten others? But then this is the dark underbelly of Christianity that people don't really like to talk about, the Church Muscular, remember that, the Crusades, conversion by the sword in places like Lituania, Iceland?

Yes, disestablishment could make us seem more modern and it would be more democratic which I’m all for. The reality of what this might mean in a society whose politics are influenced by populists is slightly concerning so I am torn both ways. Anglicanism is a liberal tradition and it has a long history of standing up for those of minority faith traditions. Most of those minority faith traditions also stand up for other traditions as well as Anglicanism. Disestablishment leading to a secular state might overlook or deny the rights of minority religions. It could also lead to the country becoming even less tolerant of the poor and marginalised. We have seen this sort of thing happening already but at least there is a voice standing up for the marginalised in the Anglican Church, although one could argue about how effective it is.

King Charles promotes inclusivity and respect for diverse religious traditions and he has a big interest in religion in general, but I don’t know if he has religious beliefs. I wonder if he feels forced to conform to an outward appearance of Anglicanism when he might believe something entirely different. Having a monarch as head of a church seems an antiquated system, although some would say that system goes back to Old Testament times when the king was anointed by God. Conversely, Jesus didn’t have much time for that sort of thing or for trappings of finery.

I’m sitting on the fence for now.

I think that there are many non Chrisitan countries where they have good health care and social services that aren't Christian and some countries that are outwardly and vocally Christian that really don't.

This is just some of my thoughts. Most of the countries who have free high standard universal health care and a benefit system like Spain and France  have a history of being founded on Christian doctrine. I doubt you have to necessarily be a Christian country today  or accept the faith yourself. Some other countries may adopt these doctrines.  It is just its values which seem to me to be enshrined in some of the values this countries have adopted. I think it like a slippery slope if they change these values.

I think that disestablishment would be a good thing, it would make us a more modern and democratic seeming country, we definately need bishops out of the house of lords. I'd like to see the monarch be able to express thier own spirituality, rather than have to be outwardly Christian. I don't think religious assemblies should be held in schools either, to be honest I'm not sure about the idea of religious schools, like catholic or cofe ones.

Martin said:

Such questions caused persecutions, murders, martyrdoms, riots and even wars.

I wonder which of the major faiths has caused the least human suffering