Good morning people

Happy Feast of Corpus Christi!

Welcome to the community. It used to be one of my favourite feast days. I am a female in my 60s but no longer a practising Catholic because I am agnostic now. I still keep up to date with the theology and spirituality of the Church through websites like America Magazine and publications such as The Tablet.

Thank you! I hope you had a good feast in any case. I like the Tablet at times but don't know anything about America magazine being in the UK. I'm sad you're not a practising catholic any more though but it's great you still read about the Church - the new Pope is very promising. 

Thanks for the welcome

I agree about the new Pope. It is lovely that his heart is in South America and he made it his home for much of his life, so he understands many of the issues that concern the people in that part of the world, yet he is well up to dealing with leaders in the US and around the world. He seems well tuned in on things that have divided the church. 

America Magazine is a Jesuit online publication, situated in the US, and it tackles some of the issues around the world from the perspective of the Church. Being Jesuit, it is strong on Ignatian Spirituality and focusing on where there is a need. 

Discernment of spirits is an entirely different thing and it embraces many elements. Terminology matters because one thing is not another. 

I am sorry to have upset you also to have made you so hung up on my terminology. Spiritual warfare can also be called discernment of spirits, hearing the voice of God in prayer _ I did not speak for the Church itself, other than as a member. But Tradition, Magesterium and Scipture all speak of this discernment of spirits. Pope Francis is just a humble man, our previous leader and he spoke on spiritual warfare too - his homily on 30Oct 2014 about Ephesians 6. As did many saints, doctors of the church, Popes and of course Jesus and the apostoles themselves. The discernment of spirits is key to the love and mercy of God! It is basically God teaching us how to recognise His voice in prayer and reject that which is not of God. What could be more loving? or merciful

But in any case, I do not wish to argue with you. This is my last comment on this issue - since it offends you. Instead I will pray and sacrifice for your soul, especially that you return to the practice of your faith. May God bless you always and fill you with His love and mercy. 

I wasn’t expecting a homily, but I have to disagree as Spiritual Warfare’ is not very much Catholic in the tradition of the Church in the UK and Europe. Most parishes and religious orders prioritise God’s love. Ignatian Spirituality and the Spiritual Exercises, in the tradition of the Jesuit run retreat houses in the UK and Europe, do not focus primarily on ‘spiritual warfare’, nor did Pope Francis, a Jesuit, make ‘spiritual warfare’ his concern. I have much past practical and theological experience of Jesuit and Ignatian spirituality and retreat houses.  It is sad that you make such claims because it is very much not the position of the church in general. In fact, Pope Francis made it clear what he thought about such things. 

I am well acquainted with the structure and hierarchy of the Church and of the place of Vatican II documents within the church and I never said that they refer to dogma.

Apostolic constitutions and decrees issued by popes, such as the Second Vatican Council documents are at the top of the hierarchy of authoritative documents.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church was presented by the apostolic constitution Fidei Depositum in 1992. These documents along with the Code of Canon Law (1983) have binding authority on the entire Church. These are legislative documents, containing dogmatic or doctrinal elements.

I respect that you have the right to believe what you choose to believe, but I don’t think it is fair to claim that the church takes the position you have stated, even if you personally have your own beliefs. 

Oh it must be the terminology, so sorry! It is very much Catholic. St Ignatius is all about spiritual warfare but he calls it discernment of spirits. All his rules of discernment are about spiritual warfare - in other words - leanring to discern which voice you are listening too, God, the enemy or yourself. The first rule of discernment is for those outside the church living in sin and the next 13 (as well as the 2nd set) are for those going from good to better ie living in the will of God. Spiritual warfare is just realising that not all the thoughts in your head are from you and that you should not listen to any of them, without discernment. It's pretty much what Jesus was talking about when he gave the sermon on the sheep knowing His voice and not the voice of the hireling (John 10). St Ignatius teaches us how to tell which is which - by the fruits mostly (as Jesus said in Mt 7: 16-20)

Do remember that Vatican II is not an infallible council (like the council of Trent was), it is merely pastoral. The the times before Christianity were not times before God. God made the earth and all on it and He chose some people to teach His ways which they did poorly - the Israelites, but they did try. Other 'so called religions' are the places in which God worked in His people outside the Israleites - they may have some truth, but they do not have the truth - Jesus is the truth, the way and the life - not a way. The Way. God was always present to everyone on the earth, whether they called Him by foreign names or not. But since He sent His only son, He has revealed the whole truth to all and He no longer tolerates the other ideologies. He was always that which was good in them, they were and are no good in and of themselves. What that Vatican II document is talking about is finding the good (God) in those religions and revealing to them what is true and leading them to the truth (Jesus Christ) . Certainly we dialogue and respect differences, but we also seek to correct untruths. There are many different rites in the Catholic church which express these differences in a manner consistent with the truth - such as the byzantine rite, the Armenian rite, Syriac, Chaldean, Maronite rite etc. these are vastly different, but each acts in the truth. The religions you mentioned act outside the full truth. We are to look into them and dialogue for sure, but with a view to helping them find the truth and leave their worship of false Gods and worship the one true God. They are not required to change their customs only what is sinful within them. You may be interested in the Chaldean rite then which orginated in that area, parts of Iran and Iraq - most Chaldeans are in Iraq these days though I know of a relgious sister in the US. 

I’m not familiar with the spiritual warfare in the Catholic tradition, and it isn’t specifically part of the Ignatian tradition, although people have freedom of course. If you are more into Carmelite spirituality, you would be familiar with St John of the Cross. Years ago, I read a book by Iain Matthews on his spirituality.

The Vatican II document Nostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions), the church praised specific aspects of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism and talks about its esteem for Islam. It urges dialogue and respect for differences. I enjoy learning about other religions and I have an interest in some of the beliefs and practices in Mesopotamia in pre Christian times C.BCE.

I’m not familiar with the spiritual warfare in the Catholic tradition, and it isn’t specifically part of the Ignatian tradition, although people have freedom of course. If you are more into Carmelite spirituality, you would be familiar with St John of the Cross. Years ago, I read a book by Iain Matthews on his spirituality.

The Vatican II document Nostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions), the church praised specific aspects of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism and talks about its esteem for Islam. It urges dialogue and respect for differences. I enjoy learning about other religions and I have an interest in some of the beliefs and practices in Mesopotamia in pre Christian times C.BCE.

Discernment of spirits is an entirely different thing and it embraces many elements. Terminology matters because one thing is not another. 

I am sorry to have upset you also to have made you so hung up on my terminology. Spiritual warfare can also be called discernment of spirits, hearing the voice of God in prayer _ I did not speak for the Church itself, other than as a member. But Tradition, Magesterium and Scipture all speak of this discernment of spirits. Pope Francis is just a humble man, our previous leader and he spoke on spiritual warfare too - his homily on 30Oct 2014 about Ephesians 6. As did many saints, doctors of the church, Popes and of course Jesus and the apostoles themselves. The discernment of spirits is key to the love and mercy of God! It is basically God teaching us how to recognise His voice in prayer and reject that which is not of God. What could be more loving? or merciful

But in any case, I do not wish to argue with you. This is my last comment on this issue - since it offends you. Instead I will pray and sacrifice for your soul, especially that you return to the practice of your faith. May God bless you always and fill you with His love and mercy. 

I wasn’t expecting a homily, but I have to disagree as Spiritual Warfare’ is not very much Catholic in the tradition of the Church in the UK and Europe. Most parishes and religious orders prioritise God’s love. Ignatian Spirituality and the Spiritual Exercises, in the tradition of the Jesuit run retreat houses in the UK and Europe, do not focus primarily on ‘spiritual warfare’, nor did Pope Francis, a Jesuit, make ‘spiritual warfare’ his concern. I have much past practical and theological experience of Jesuit and Ignatian spirituality and retreat houses.  It is sad that you make such claims because it is very much not the position of the church in general. In fact, Pope Francis made it clear what he thought about such things. 

I am well acquainted with the structure and hierarchy of the Church and of the place of Vatican II documents within the church and I never said that they refer to dogma.

Apostolic constitutions and decrees issued by popes, such as the Second Vatican Council documents are at the top of the hierarchy of authoritative documents.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church was presented by the apostolic constitution Fidei Depositum in 1992. These documents along with the Code of Canon Law (1983) have binding authority on the entire Church. These are legislative documents, containing dogmatic or doctrinal elements.

I respect that you have the right to believe what you choose to believe, but I don’t think it is fair to claim that the church takes the position you have stated, even if you personally have your own beliefs. 

Oh it must be the terminology, so sorry! It is very much Catholic. St Ignatius is all about spiritual warfare but he calls it discernment of spirits. All his rules of discernment are about spiritual warfare - in other words - leanring to discern which voice you are listening too, God, the enemy or yourself. The first rule of discernment is for those outside the church living in sin and the next 13 (as well as the 2nd set) are for those going from good to better ie living in the will of God. Spiritual warfare is just realising that not all the thoughts in your head are from you and that you should not listen to any of them, without discernment. It's pretty much what Jesus was talking about when he gave the sermon on the sheep knowing His voice and not the voice of the hireling (John 10). St Ignatius teaches us how to tell which is which - by the fruits mostly (as Jesus said in Mt 7: 16-20)

Do remember that Vatican II is not an infallible council (like the council of Trent was), it is merely pastoral. The the times before Christianity were not times before God. God made the earth and all on it and He chose some people to teach His ways which they did poorly - the Israelites, but they did try. Other 'so called religions' are the places in which God worked in His people outside the Israleites - they may have some truth, but they do not have the truth - Jesus is the truth, the way and the life - not a way. The Way. God was always present to everyone on the earth, whether they called Him by foreign names or not. But since He sent His only son, He has revealed the whole truth to all and He no longer tolerates the other ideologies. He was always that which was good in them, they were and are no good in and of themselves. What that Vatican II document is talking about is finding the good (God) in those religions and revealing to them what is true and leading them to the truth (Jesus Christ) . Certainly we dialogue and respect differences, but we also seek to correct untruths. There are many different rites in the Catholic church which express these differences in a manner consistent with the truth - such as the byzantine rite, the Armenian rite, Syriac, Chaldean, Maronite rite etc. these are vastly different, but each acts in the truth. The religions you mentioned act outside the full truth. We are to look into them and dialogue for sure, but with a view to helping them find the truth and leave their worship of false Gods and worship the one true God. They are not required to change their customs only what is sinful within them. You may be interested in the Chaldean rite then which orginated in that area, parts of Iran and Iraq - most Chaldeans are in Iraq these days though I know of a relgious sister in the US.