suicide risk and people at the abler end of the autistic spectrum

Hi Marjorie,

Thanks for clarifying that for me, I was struggling to understand your point and in answer to your question I have been in the position of having to manage my sons behavioural outbursts, both in private and in Public and you are right, it doesn't get better with age/adulthood. (I didn't see 'Born Naughty,' incidently.)

With regard to the not knowing when to ask for help or even about understanding your own emotions, I can appreciate that. Asking for help has never come easy to me, yet you do also feel that you are very much on your own in managing your childs and your own issues, post diagnosis. I had little or no guidence at the begining for my boys and even less ongoing support.

I've had a good go at introspection over the past year and know more about myself now, than I did, yet applying any strategies to help myself when I plumet, is still often a struggle.

In the coldest sense, I can look at my children objectively, identify the issues and look at strategies to help them, and although I am now able to see my own issues in a similar way, I struggle to apply them for myself, if you get my drift. Having the incite and the ability to help others, yet not always managing to proactivily help oneself is a crippling thing I find. Does anyone else experience this?

Unlike yourself, In my lowest ebb, even my children were not enough to bring me back up. I'm ashamed to say it, but life was so bleak that nothing touched me. I suspect my brother experienced something somewhat similar as he was so absorbed in his own depressive episode that he didn't even realise the day he took his life was also his partners birthday. Knowing him as I did, I'm sure he wouldn't have wished to mar that date for the rest of their days on this earth.

Re Classic Codgers comments, I think I get what you are saying, but I guess what i'm trying to say is that i'm struggling to 'fully' relate to it. I think my misunderstanding of Marjories point, has probably muddied the waters somewhat. I thought that she was implying that all those with badly behaved children were trying to label it as ASD. 

If I can just explain. In my own case and unlike my mother; who had extremely poor parentinng skills to the point of child neglect at the extreme, i have been extremely proactive as a parent with my children and if i've struggled with a particular issue then I've looked again at my methods and tried a different tack. Furthermore, I've worked hard on empowerment and awareness of personal responsibility with my children to help them have a sense of cause and effect and the consequence of their actions.

Yet my own efforts to support my children and give them the tools that can enable them, by first learning about their limitations, could easily be misinterpreted by others, im sure.

Perhaps I subconciously over compensated in my parenting efforts to ensure that neglect didn't ever show itself in my own family, by ensuring that my children were well cared for, but in no way has this interfered with ensuring they had solid boundries. This however, as many will know, does not equates to having a child without meltdowns. Indeed I'm told, meltdowns often occur in an environment that the child is and feels safest in.

However, I find myself questioning what affect this proactive parenting has really had in helping my sons with ASD. It seems to have worked for my other children who don't have it. So what are the effects on those that do have ASD?

I attribute my own caring ability and parenting skills with growing up in a different household to that of my siblings. I saw how things should be done and learnt from it, as you suggest, yet of the two I have with Aspergers, I still have a child with extremely challenging behaviour (Often agressive verbally) and the 'success' of my parenting skills with the other has ensured that although he can now conduct himself in public without public display, the internalizing of his anxiety and meltdowns often results in constant illness.

I knew nothing about Autism before my childrens diagnosis and my level of fighting was not so much over obtaining a label or diagnosis, as having them assessed in the first place. In fact when it was first suggested to me by the professionals that my son had autism, I instantly rejected it. Even after their diagnosis i rarely discussed it with anyone beyond the professionals who worked with them in a given therapy or their educational environment. In retrospect, I realize I retreacted quite badly to it.

Like you Classic, i have suffered much illness myself for the same internalization issues that my son suffers and life has been less about being indolent (I worked 2 jobs at one point) and more about chosing the type of work that kept stress and illness to a minimum. Often low paid, often menial, often puctuate with illness if the stress got too much.

On your coments on 'the ability to breed makes them 'parents', I'm not sure how I feel. Complex issues surround parents with ASD. Single or otherwise. I have been both, but what I can say is that following the death of my former partner, I was lost and alone for a long while and later began to realise that I often needed to be on my own and struggled to manage the needs of any relationship beyond that with my children. I'm not sure that makes me a bad parent as such, merely one that was probably already at the limits of capacity. 

I guess what I was trying to say about running for cover, is that although I'm often filled with bravery and encouragement for my children, I live most of my own life in fear and this can be incredably crippling. This fear is not necessarily founded on something 'I' originally fear, but others reactions to a situation or story, that then cause me to feel fearful.

I am, by nature, very naive and this naivity has caused me great harm in the past. Because I've so often had to take my ques from others reaction to things to guage my own safety (Whom I saw as more able and aware than myself) I can often adopt others fears even though they don't apply to me. This causes me to ruminate over possibilities that would probably never happen to me.

This, coupled with my terrible life experiences has probably contributed to my deeper levels of depression.

I cannot concur however, with your statement that "it follows that it would be less likely (but NOT unlikely) for girls to suffer the same intensity of internal conflict that boys do when we try to 'hide' ourselves."

Longman maybe able to help me here with the study, but i read recently that women with ASD appear to live significantly shorter lives than men. Not as a result of suicide, but as a result of stress. Whilst this may appear to affect the figures in relation to both men and women and the incidence suicide, it probably won't take into account the higher amount of early deaths attributed to stress related illness of women with ASD. It seems more likely therefore, In my opinion, that the intensity of internal conflict may not be less, but in fact maybe maifesting itself differently in women than in men.

Once again, although anecdotal, my mother; an undiagnosed Aspie, would bare testiment to my theory, as she too died very prematurely due to stress.

Although I have respect for someone such as Tony Attwood, I do take issue with some of his schemas on the presentation of women and even on what he terms as Catastrophizing using the threat of suicide by some on the spectrum.

In my own personal experience it's always when I have reached my very lowest ebb that thoughts like suicide rear their head and always when my comminications that I'm struggleing to cope have not been understood as genuine statements of need. Again, it's like you are not being taken seriously. In these instants, I'd be much less likely to Catastrophize or shout about it and more like (As my brother did) to act on it.

Through fear of being labeled, stigmatized, sectioned or hospitalized, many (Particulaly women) will play down their degree of mental health issues in order not to draw attention to themselves.

The nature of the subject, much like trying to record the incidence of drug and alcohol misuse amoungst the ASD population, makes it very difficult to glean accurate information statistically. I suspect we would have to lift the prejudice on many more levels than just ASD and the incidence of suicide and suicidal thoughts before people would become more open on the subject.

Can I also say. Tony Attwwod covers very little on the subject of suicide in his book. Given that he's a professional in the field, it seems odd that this issue has very little coverage.

Food for thought and interesting to get such diverse views. As the academic, perhaps Longman would like to conduct a small study on the issues raised?   

Hi Marjorie,

Thanks for clarifying that for me, I was struggling to understand your point and in answer to your question I have been in the position of having to manage my sons behavioural outbursts, both in private and in Public and you are right, it doesn't get better with age/adulthood. (I didn't see 'Born Naughty,' incidently.)

With regard to the not knowing when to ask for help or even about understanding your own emotions, I can appreciate that. Asking for help has never come easy to me, yet you do also feel that you are very much on your own in managing your childs and your own issues, post diagnosis. I had little or no guidence at the begining for my boys and even less ongoing support.

I've had a good go at introspection over the past year and know more about myself now, than I did, yet applying any strategies to help myself when I plumet, is still often a struggle.

In the coldest sense, I can look at my children objectively, identify the issues and look at strategies to help them, and although I am now able to see my own issues in a similar way, I struggle to apply them for myself, if you get my drift. Having the incite and the ability to help others, yet not always managing to proactivily help oneself is a crippling thing I find. Does anyone else experience this?

Unlike yourself, In my lowest ebb, even my children were not enough to bring me back up. I'm ashamed to say it, but life was so bleak that nothing touched me. I suspect my brother experienced something somewhat similar as he was so absorbed in his own depressive episode that he didn't even realise the day he took his life was also his partners birthday. Knowing him as I did, I'm sure he wouldn't have wished to mar that date for the rest of their days on this earth.

Re Classic Codgers comments, I think I get what you are saying, but I guess what i'm trying to say is that i'm struggling to 'fully' relate to it. I think my misunderstanding of Marjories point, has probably muddied the waters somewhat. I thought that she was implying that all those with badly behaved children were trying to label it as ASD. 

If I can just explain. In my own case and unlike my mother; who had extremely poor parentinng skills to the point of child neglect at the extreme, i have been extremely proactive as a parent with my children and if i've struggled with a particular issue then I've looked again at my methods and tried a different tack. Furthermore, I've worked hard on empowerment and awareness of personal responsibility with my children to help them have a sense of cause and effect and the consequence of their actions.

Yet my own efforts to support my children and give them the tools that can enable them, by first learning about their limitations, could easily be misinterpreted by others, im sure.

Perhaps I subconciously over compensated in my parenting efforts to ensure that neglect didn't ever show itself in my own family, by ensuring that my children were well cared for, but in no way has this interfered with ensuring they had solid boundries. This however, as many will know, does not equates to having a child without meltdowns. Indeed I'm told, meltdowns often occur in an environment that the child is and feels safest in.

However, I find myself questioning what affect this proactive parenting has really had in helping my sons with ASD. It seems to have worked for my other children who don't have it. So what are the effects on those that do have ASD?

I attribute my own caring ability and parenting skills with growing up in a different household to that of my siblings. I saw how things should be done and learnt from it, as you suggest, yet of the two I have with Aspergers, I still have a child with extremely challenging behaviour (Often agressive verbally) and the 'success' of my parenting skills with the other has ensured that although he can now conduct himself in public without public display, the internalizing of his anxiety and meltdowns often results in constant illness.

I knew nothing about Autism before my childrens diagnosis and my level of fighting was not so much over obtaining a label or diagnosis, as having them assessed in the first place. In fact when it was first suggested to me by the professionals that my son had autism, I instantly rejected it. Even after their diagnosis i rarely discussed it with anyone beyond the professionals who worked with them in a given therapy or their educational environment. In retrospect, I realize I retreacted quite badly to it.

Like you Classic, i have suffered much illness myself for the same internalization issues that my son suffers and life has been less about being indolent (I worked 2 jobs at one point) and more about chosing the type of work that kept stress and illness to a minimum. Often low paid, often menial, often puctuate with illness if the stress got too much.

On your coments on 'the ability to breed makes them 'parents', I'm not sure how I feel. Complex issues surround parents with ASD. Single or otherwise. I have been both, but what I can say is that following the death of my former partner, I was lost and alone for a long while and later began to realise that I often needed to be on my own and struggled to manage the needs of any relationship beyond that with my children. I'm not sure that makes me a bad parent as such, merely one that was probably already at the limits of capacity. 

I guess what I was trying to say about running for cover, is that although I'm often filled with bravery and encouragement for my children, I live most of my own life in fear and this can be incredably crippling. This fear is not necessarily founded on something 'I' originally fear, but others reactions to a situation or story, that then cause me to feel fearful.

I am, by nature, very naive and this naivity has caused me great harm in the past. Because I've so often had to take my ques from others reaction to things to guage my own safety (Whom I saw as more able and aware than myself) I can often adopt others fears even though they don't apply to me. This causes me to ruminate over possibilities that would probably never happen to me.

This, coupled with my terrible life experiences has probably contributed to my deeper levels of depression.

I cannot concur however, with your statement that "it follows that it would be less likely (but NOT unlikely) for girls to suffer the same intensity of internal conflict that boys do when we try to 'hide' ourselves."

Longman maybe able to help me here with the study, but i read recently that women with ASD appear to live significantly shorter lives than men. Not as a result of suicide, but as a result of stress. Whilst this may appear to affect the figures in relation to both men and women and the incidence suicide, it probably won't take into account the higher amount of early deaths attributed to stress related illness of women with ASD. It seems more likely therefore, In my opinion, that the intensity of internal conflict may not be less, but in fact maybe maifesting itself differently in women than in men.

Once again, although anecdotal, my mother; an undiagnosed Aspie, would bare testiment to my theory, as she too died very prematurely due to stress.

Although I have respect for someone such as Tony Attwood, I do take issue with some of his schemas on the presentation of women and even on what he terms as Catastrophizing using the threat of suicide by some on the spectrum.

In my own personal experience it's always when I have reached my very lowest ebb that thoughts like suicide rear their head and always when my comminications that I'm struggleing to cope have not been understood as genuine statements of need. Again, it's like you are not being taken seriously. In these instants, I'd be much less likely to Catastrophize or shout about it and more like (As my brother did) to act on it.

Through fear of being labeled, stigmatized, sectioned or hospitalized, many (Particulaly women) will play down their degree of mental health issues in order not to draw attention to themselves.

The nature of the subject, much like trying to record the incidence of drug and alcohol misuse amoungst the ASD population, makes it very difficult to glean accurate information statistically. I suspect we would have to lift the prejudice on many more levels than just ASD and the incidence of suicide and suicidal thoughts before people would become more open on the subject.

Can I also say. Tony Attwwod covers very little on the subject of suicide in his book. Given that he's a professional in the field, it seems odd that this issue has very little coverage.

Food for thought and interesting to get such diverse views. As the academic, perhaps Longman would like to conduct a small study on the issues raised?