whats the difference between asperger and autism?

shopgirl said:

My LB is under assesment at the moment. First they mentioned ADHD then said he had aspergers traits now they seem to be swaying more to autism.

Can anyone explain to me whats the difference between aspergers and autism? Everything I found on google was very vague.

thanks

Having read, and not understood, a lot of the comments made on this thread, I hope some of the links, on the website mentioned below, might help.

Website introduction: NB Aspergers is a very complex subject and this website - http://alex-and-lyn.wix.com/aspergers-awareness - is my simplistic way of putting together a few bits of information I think may help people. Be warned; there are a lot of misinformed and misguided websites, about Aspergers, so be sure you trust any sources of information you read. It’s also worth mentioning Aspergers has only really been generally known about since about 1990 so there is a fast learning curve, for everyone, with the result that a large amount of website information will be out of date i.e. DO NOT believe everything you read - and that includes some of the comments made on this thread.

Yeah, I know, I've jumped through many of the same hoops too.

...trust me, you still have to jump through those hoops with a diagnosis too. 

Entitlements and how you are affected seem to mean little to those in power, they seem to assume everyone is lying or exaggerating unless they have proof from a professional.

I have come across it time and time again.

I applied for DLA.  They wrote to my GP.  DWP wrote to me to tell me they were writing to GP.  GP replied to DWP.  Hmmn, thought DWP, how can we get out of this now, I know, let's write to someone else.  DWP wrote to me to tell me they are writing to "my consultant" (who is that I wonder, not having a consultant).  DWP write to adult MHS. I receive about two other holding letters from DWP.  I receive letter from MHS telling me they have sent DWP request to GP [also cc'd into DWP] and advise me to contact GP.  I contact GP requesting they respond to DWP.  GP replies "we've already replied to DWP".  Ah, think I, but that's the first level report.  DWP wanted more.  So I am left hanging, because despite having a diagnosis, DWP want to try to wriggle out of allowing me DLA.  It's gone round in a circle with me not knowing whether I should write to DWP to say that they've already had the medical information they seek.  Am I awaiting a refusal for DLA or what.  I have gone into detail of my issues, my GP knows my needs, even if he doesn't understand autism.  A copy of my diagnostic report and a GP report wasn't enough to get the DWP to agree, I think I've jumped a fair few hoops over this already.  And the DWP's attitude just gives me anxiety, every letter they send me stresses me out.  So I think the officials have a very different view of entitlement than both the law and ethically.

IntenseWorld said:

[quote]Well, from the point of view of legal entitlements, the question is moot because Asperger's is a type of Autism - and legal entitlements would apply to the whole spectrum equally.[/quote]

And, from the point of view of support, and stuff like benefits, the label is irrelevent anyway because those things are not based on what diagnosis you have, but on how the condition affects you personally.

Not really.  Because my youngest daughter had the same issues before her diagnosis, which I listed in full, and was refused DLA.  After diagnosis she was awarded DLA.  Same has happened with my eldest.  CAMHS stated she had autistic behaviours, but failed to diagnose her, I listed all her issues and her DLA was refused.  I got the statement of reasons from DWP and it was clearly because of having no diagnosis.  So for legal entitlements such as benefits, the label is extremely important.  Likewise she was refused an assessment for a statement of SEN, because she had no diagnosis (they stated their decision was based on the evidence to hand, and I had given chapter and verse on her difficulties, but because it was not backed up by an official diagnosis naming her condition they have refused).  Also, she has been unable to access the ASC unit at school due to not having an official diagnosis.  Stating you have autistic behaviours, and multiple issues the same as someone with a diagnosis of autism, therefore isn't enough, so I don't buy it that it matters only how the issues affect you, it's the label that opens doors, as all parents of autistic children will tell you.

Not only that, before my youngest had her diagnosis, I rang the NAS for help, they refused to help because she had no diagnosis.  Why?  She had all the same traits then as she has now, it was just because she didn't have the label on a piece of paper.

Also, DLA is provided at a higher rate for low-functioning autistics than it is to someone with Asperger's.  There is extreme bias and inability accept the level of issues based on the label.  The label is paramount.

Ah... Now the tables are turned! This is similar to the 'diagnosis criteria vs how the criteria are applied' discussion but in reverse! LOL!

I agree, the diagnosis is important in getting benefits, etc, in practice.

However, the eligibility criteria, that I am aware of, concerning these matters, do not state that a particular diagnosis is required.

The criteria say one thing, how those criteria are applied, though, is a different matter.

Bottom line is - if you don't have a diagnosis you do have the same entitlements as someone that does, it's just much harder, and you have to jump through more hoops (e.g. appeals and tribunals), to get what you're entitled to.

Scorpion0x17 said:

Well, from the point of view of legal entitlements, the question is moot because Asperger's is a type of Autism - and legal entitlements would apply to the whole spectrum equally.

And, from the point of view of support, and stuff like benefits, the label is irrelevent anyway because those things are not based on what diagnosis you have, but on how the condition affects you personally.

Not really.  Because my youngest daughter had the same issues before her diagnosis, which I listed in full, and was refused DLA.  After diagnosis she was awarded DLA.  Same has happened with my eldest.  CAMHS stated she had autistic behaviours, but failed to diagnose her, I listed all her issues and her DLA was refused.  I got the statement of reasons from DWP and it was clearly because of having no diagnosis.  So for legal entitlements such as benefits, the label is extremely important.  Likewise she was refused an assessment for a statement of SEN, because she had no diagnosis (they stated their decision was based on the evidence to hand, and I had given chapter and verse on her difficulties, but because it was not backed up by an official diagnosis naming her condition they have refused).  Also, she has been unable to access the ASC unit at school due to not having an official diagnosis.  Stating you have autistic behaviours, and multiple issues the same as someone with a diagnosis of autism, therefore isn't enough, so I don't buy it that it matters only how the issues affect you, it's the label that opens doors, as all parents of autistic children will tell you.

Not only that, before my youngest had her diagnosis, I rang the NAS for help, they refused to help because she had no diagnosis.  Why?  She had all the same traits then as she has now, it was just because she didn't have the label on a piece of paper.

Also, DLA is provided at a higher rate for low-functioning autistics than it is to someone with Asperger's.  There is extreme bias and inability accept the level of issues based on the label.  The label is paramount.

IntenseWorld said:

Yes for the time being I believe this is so, however I have also heard that in this country we tend to follow the Americans with diagnostic stuff and this might have had an influence on why there is a pending revision to the ICD.

As I understand it, the ICD is reviewed every 10 years, and revised every year, as a matter of course anyway.

And whilst ICD-11 may be more in line with DSM-5 than ICD-10, it almost certainly won't, as DSM-5 also does not, excluse those that would currently be diagnosed as having Asperger's.

All that DSM-5 does is bring all the Autistic sub-types under the single umbrella term of Autism.

Is that a bad thing? I don't know. It certainly helps with questions like this - there are no more multiple confusing sub-types, there's just the one 'autism' category. And it shifts the emphasis away from a 'what box do you fit into' and onto more of a 'how does your autism affect you' focus.

I agree about the labels, but the labels matter very much for other purposes that may be to do with support, legal entitlements, indication of severity etc., even if they don't matter to the person themselves from a practical POV.

Well, from the point of view of legal entitlements, the question is moot because Asperger's is a type of Autism - and legal entitlements would apply to the whole spectrum equally.

And, from the point of view of support, and stuff like benefits, the label is irrelevent anyway because those things are not based on what diagnosis you have, but on how the condition affects you personally.

Yes for the time being I believe this is so, however I have also heard that in this country we tend to follow the Americans with diagnostic stuff and this might have had an influence on why there is a pending revision to the ICD.

I agree about the labels, but the labels matter very much for other purposes that may be to do with support, legal entitlements, indication of severity etc., even if they don't matter to the person themselves from a practical POV.

IntenseWorld said:

I would be strangely sad to lose my title of Asperger's though!

This gets to the heart of the matter regarding the way clinicians interpret the diagnostic criteria.

For a start, you won't "lose [your] title of Aspeger's", if you already have a diagnosis, unless you ask to be re-diagnosed. A change in the diagnosing criteria does not automatically trigger a re-classification of everyone that was diagnosed in the past. So, unless, as I say, you ask for a re-diagosis, your diagnosis will still be Asperger's.

So, will the Asperger's label being dropped from the cirteria actually change anything about you, and the difficulties you have, IntenseWorld?

I believe it would not.

And this is why the way the diagnostic criteria are applied in reality by clinicians is so important in answering the OPs question.

A label does not define a thing, and changing the label does not change the nature of the thing.

Or, in other words, it is irrelevant what label is placed on a person by a diagnostic process, what matters is what difficulties the person has.

That defines them, and what it means to have whichever label they have a attached to them.

Also, from what I've read, I believe all indications are that, in this country, diagnostic clinicians will still be able to use their judgement and apply the diagnostic label they deem to be most fitting - even if that is "Asperger's".

...took the words right out of my mouth Anil A - Mod.  It's exactly what I was trying to say all along!

I presume the NAS is campaigning to ensure the government enforces standard assessment and diagnostic procedures across the UK, following NICE Guidelines?

I also would be interested to know, if the impending ICD-11 will be mirroring the DSM-5 regarding including sensory issues in the diagnostic criteria and removal of AS as a diagnosis so that all autism spectrum conditions are diagnosed as only that.  This would assist a little with confusion over differences between AS and HFA.  I would be strangely sad to lose my title of Asperger's though!

Thank you Longman. Let's try and focus on the OP. 

To get back to shopgirl's original posting 10th September, if you are still watching this thread, the answer is complex and unresolved - as the debate makes plain.

There are even very few books to explain it all - they all make a mountain out of a molehill.

At the moment, until your brother's situation is clearer, autism manifets in widely different ways, and hopefully the diagnosis, when eventually decided, will make things clearer.

"Debating clinicians not following diagnostic criteria correctly is irrelevant on this thread" your words, IntenseWorld, not mine.

I respectfully point out Scorps, that I have not stated anywhere that it "is the only thing that matters" (if you believe otherwise please quote me directly).  Those are your words and your interpretation, and you take ownership of them.  In fact, it was you that said your question was more important.

I agree that how the diagnostic criteria are interpreted and used is a very important issue, I have never said otherwise.  It's not what I implied anywhere either.  This is why the government should ensure uniformity across the UK with assessment and diagnosis and ensure that clinicians comply with certain standards.

IntenseWorld, I have addressed parts of your post elsewhere and so shall not also address them here, and shall only address your other point:

I believe you are misleading the OP when you state that the only thing that matters in answering the question of "what is the difference between Autism and Asperger's" is the diagnostic criteria.

There are two sides to the question - the 'diagnostic criteria' side, and 'application of the diagnostic criteria' side - both are as important to what the labels "Autism" and "Asperger's" mean, in the real world, as the other.

It would be nice if this were not the case, but it is, and for very good reasons that I have already covered in this thread.

Scorpion0x17 said:

Which part of your answer not being the whole answer do you not understand?

You answered one part of the OPs question - the 'what are the diagnostic criteria' part.

I answered the other part - the 'how those diagnostic criteria are implemented by clinicians' part.

Both parts form the full answer to the question "what is the difference between Autism and Asperger's?"

Therefore both our answers belong in this thread, both answer the OP's question, and yet you have repeatedly attacked me for providing a part of the answer that you missed.

Once again, you are not the arbiter of truth. You don't get to decide what parts of the full answer are correct, which are not, or what information goes in which thread.

We are both correct. Both our answers belong in this thread. We are both providing the OP with a correct answer to her question.

But you insist on being the only person who is correct in this thread, and thereby dragging the thread off topic.

You didn't give a full answer. I provided the rest of the answer. Get over it.

OK, I civilly point out, that I have not attacked you and request that you kindly desist from such accusations which are not borne out by the truth of the matter.

You believe that explaining what diagnosticians do with the diagnostic criteria, (whether it be for biased and personal reasons, erroneous conclusions, opinions on labelling people, how their assessment centre likes to do things or any number of reasons) is about the difference between HFA and AS.

I do not.  I believe that the difference between HFA and AS is generally accepted to be that there was no speech delay or regression in AS whereas there was in HFA.  This is illustrated on the website that this very forum is part of, and numerous other sources.  As stated before, I do not imbue my response with any emotion whatsoever, I am not suffering personality traits that you may attribute my response to, I state the facts of the matter only.

I do not disagree that clinicians do what you said, and you clearly feel this a very important question.  I therefore politely, and again without any intention behind it, suggested that you may like to start a thread for that discussion.  I would join you in commenting and no doubt agreeing.  We have not disagreed on any thread before and I see no reason why we should now.

My view, is that OP appeared not to be experienced with the whole arena of autism and was looking for guidance and an answer.  I personally felt ( I do tend to defend people and can be a knight in shining armour by nature) that OP would be confused by a lot of in-depth discussion on a different, if related, point.  I do not apologise for looking out for OP as it can be a minefield out there, and I like to help people.  I pointed out that another thread might be better, it can be difficult when people are looking for clear answers and the water is muddied by digression.  However, I also pointed out that you were free to post away.  It's not my decision to make, but you misunderstood my intentions entirely and took the thread into the realms of needlessly insulting me for trying to do a good deed for someone.  Is that right or fair I ask you?

Becoming angry is not the answer, slating people is not the answer, making wild accusations is not the answer.  Staying calm and debating in a respectful manner is. 

Hi all,

I've unlocked this thread by request. Please, focus on the core issues and avoid making accusations or acting anything less than civil. Debating is fine, attacks aren't. 

Okay - this has gotten out of hand. Locking the thread. 

Scorpion0x17/Intenseworld  - both of you are valued contributers. Please remain civil. 

IntenseWorld said:

[quote][quote][quote]... in fact, of more importance in answering the question "what is the difference between Autism and Asperger's?" than what the criteria actually says.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Try telling OP that, she just asked a question she was entitled to ask and just wanted a simple answer.

Just saying what the diagnostic criteria is only half the answer to the OPs question. The other half is how the diagnostic criteria are applied by clinicians.

I'm sorry you don't like that, but that is the truth, and it is enitrely logical.

What else are threads asking questions meant for!  Maybe you could start a thread asking the question you feel more important?

OK, I was just pulling your leg previously, but now this is starting to irritate me.

You are not the arbiter of truth and you don't get to say what is and is not a valid answer to any question posed.

You may not like the answer given, but that doesn't mean it belongs in a different thread.

Seriously, get down off your pedestal of righteousness.

Wow, that's a strong reaction.  I'm actually not on a pedestal nor being righteous, just stating facts.  I cannot understand why you have become so full of emotion over this.  First sarcasm, then anger.  I can't help it that OP wanted some information and you have decided another question is "more important" to answer, the fact remains your view is a different question.  It's disrespecting her question, likely confusing her as she has enough to worry about and complicating things unnecessarily.

I repeat, again, she asked what the difference between the two conditions is.  I replied, giving her a link to the NAS website which further illustrated.

I have no feeling about your answer, it isn't about whether I like your answer or not, I stated a fact.  It would appear you are the one not liking what I pointed out.

If you want to post away here with other information that you feel more important without giving it a thread of it's own to attract discussion be my guest.  I'm thinking of OP, not you.

Which part of your answer not being the whole answer do you not understand?

You answered one part of the OPs question - the 'what are the diagnostic criteria' part.

I answered the other part - the 'how those diagnostic criteria are implemented by clinicians' part.

Both parts form the full answer to the question "what is the difference between Autism and Asperger's?"

Therefore both our answers belong in this thread, both answer the OP's question, and yet you have repeatedly attacked me for providing a part of the answer that you missed.

Once again, you are not the arbiter of truth. You don't get to decide what parts of the full answer are correct, which are not, or what information goes in which thread.

We are both correct. Both our answers belong in this thread. We are both providing the OP with a correct answer to her question.

But you insist on being the only person who is correct in this thread, and thereby dragging the thread off topic.

You didn't give a full answer. I provided the rest of the answer. Get over it.

IntenseWorld said:

[quote]... in fact, of more importance in answering the question "what is the difference between Autism and Asperger's?" than what the criteria actually says.[/quote]

Try telling OP that, she just asked a question she was entitled to ask and just wanted a simple answer.

Just saying what the diagnostic criteria is only half the answer to the OPs question. The other half is how the diagnostic criteria are applied by clinicians.

I'm sorry you don't like that, but that is the truth, and it is enitrely logical.

What else are threads asking questions meant for!  Maybe you could start a thread asking the question you feel more important?

OK, I was just pulling your leg previously, but now this is starting to irritate me.

You are not the arbiter of truth and you don't get to say what is and is not a valid answer to any question posed.

You may not like the answer given, but that doesn't mean it belongs in a different thread.

Seriously, get down off your pedestal of righteousness.