Burnout

Hi Tom 

glad you're back, but wish it was under better circumstances. I've been there myself, but being the inveterate burner of bridges that I am, I just quit. I understand that's not what you want.... 

As for it being like PTSD, it might actually be PTSD. Before I was diagnosed, my dials were off the scale for everything sensory and I was told that this led to hypervigilance, which is a common PTSD symptom. Basically your fight or flight urge goes so nuts that you are hyper-alert the whole time. This sounds startling similar to what you describe.

I have found since diagnosis that the one thing that NTs, however sympathetic, consistently fail to get, is that if it's got this bad, simply removing yourself from the situation for a day doesn't reset the dials to zero. You probably need to get away from the cause (attack dog colleagues) for long enough to recover and they need to understand that even if you look like you're getting there, re-exposure will trigger it all off again. 

I really hope for your sake that they have some understanding of this - you'd think they should do in their line of work.

Give Daisy a cuddle .... cat cuddles are one of the few things that drop the dials back a couple of notches in my case!

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Moggsy.  I was planning to leave the forums for a while to get some balance back in my life - but there's nowhere else I can go, and the balance has been tipped out of whack in all respects this week.  I knew, a while back, that this person I'd come to trust had turned a bit hostile.  But I didn't realise how much she would go for the jugular once she'd got someone in her sights.  One of those unpredictable and confusing people who lead you to believe one thing - and then exploit your 'gullibility' to their own ends.  I'm popular at work with the other staff and the service users - including a service user who's one of her favourites - and I don't think she likes competition.  Not that that's what it is, of course - it's just me doing my job.  But she doesn't see it that way.  She was waiting for her moment with me, and this week she found it.  She could have done all sorts of things to help me out, but instead she let things escalate and, in my view, actively provoked them.  And then, when it all went wrong on me, she was coming out of the corner barking, teeth bared, claws out.  Another victory for her.  Another feather in the cap of her ego.  Another competitor bested.  Rest assured now, too - in spite of my manager's promise that we'd be kept apart in work - that she'll muster up another opportunity.  She'll look for every bit of evidence of a mistake.  This is what she did with the other guy who was eventually sacked.  She made some outrageous claims about him, and managed to get other staff to support her.  They most likely did this out of fear, because she's the kind of person who'll make you suffer if you go against her.  She has her network of confederates, and it's sometimes difficult - especially if you don't read people very well - to know who they are.  I know that certain people always 'like' her social media stuff, and she always 'likes' theirs.  There's one person in particular - many other staff struggle with her - who's going to be a problem.  She was part of the problem that occurred the other day.  They work a kind of 'good cop/bad cop' routine together.  Except they're both bad cops underneath it.

Quitting may be the only thing I can do to maintain my sanity and protect my health.  It doesn't matter if I don't have to work with these people.  Even being in the same building as they are, using the same resources, actually having to see them at the start and end of each day - it fills me with dread.  It's a very similar scenario to 20 years ago, and I can't let myself get into that state again.  I was younger then, and more flexible with being able to move on.  But it all goes back to that incident in the school room at the age of 6.  The trauma is seared into my memory.  It will never go away.  And whenever I'm around people like that, I make mistake after mistake.  I can't help it.  And it's all fuel to their fire.

I will have to quit on my own terms, though.  I can get full sick pay for a month, then half-pay for five weeks.  It will mean going onto benefits again, but I don't think I have any choice.  Hopefully in that time, still being technically employed, I'll be able to find something else.  I'm also going to contact my union, though I think they'll agree that the company is doing everything they can in the circumstances to accommodate my needs.

Oh Tom, this sounds horribly familiar to me. I am sure lots of other people here have experienced this sort of hell at work too. You are right to prioritise your health and take time off to plan your next steps. Moggsy's observations about PTSD recovery and re-exposure are very insightful and important. 

In my experience some situations are just too dangerous to remain in. I've sometimes tried to hang on in toxic work places but it's almost impossible to resolve issues once attack dogs have us in their sights. They are nasty and devious - the complete opposite of us. We threaten them because they know we can see through them. 

When I resigned from my first ever 'proper' job and informed senior managers that I had serious concerns about institutional abuse my Dad called me spineless. I still think it was one of the bravest things I've ever done. Years later an inquiry was held and I was proved right. 

I've carried on burning bridges whenever I have found myself working for, or with, dishonest or destructive people. I won't stand by and watch junior colleagues get bullied either, which has cost me my job on more than one occasion. 

I'd be much better off financially if I had hung on in toxic jobs, and I'd have a decent pension in a few years too. But betraying my principles would have destroyed me, which brings to mind this Tracy Chapman song:

So don't be tempted by the shiny apple                     Don't you eat of a bitter fruit                                     Hunger only for a taste of justice                            Hunger only for a world of truth                                

Cause all that you have is your soul 

Take care Tom () 

I had one of managers say to me essentially something like "Do you want to get on, or do you want to be right?"  It seemed like a dumb question to me...

I think we have something in common: a preference for sticking to our principals, even if it makes us unpopular. I suspect this kind of things makes the others uncomfortable, because you're not supposed to go against the status quo. Well, I would prefer to be disliked for "not knowing how to behave", than to dislike myself for being a hypocrite.

Unfortunately other people's spinelessness in this regard tends to result in precious little backup for the likes of us.

I had the same when I worked at the County Court, Moggsy.  One of the District Judges was the most pompous, arrogant, irascible and superior of p****s.  He would barely deign to look at office staff if they went to him with a query on a file, and he usually sent people away with a flea in their ear.  Very much a product of the public school/Oxbridge/gentlemen's club system.  He made you feel like you were definitely one of the lower orders.

When he retired, they held a leaving 'barbecue' in the grounds of the court.  I was just about the only person who refused to go, and it wasn't looked upon favourably.  But everyone hated his guts.  And they were all there, like a bunch of toadies, noses up his back end, etc.  Self-serving hypocrites.

Unfortunately, I thing people are mostly cowards when it comes to speaking up. I remember many years ago I worked in an office with an awful tyrant of a woman, everyone loathed her and she was the most terrible bully. No-one would ever stand up to her, apart from me - she would go purple with rage when I would shrug, say "well you're not my boss, so it's nowt to do with you anyway" and walk off (I was 19 at the time)

Well the day came around when she retired, and a colleague asked if I was going to her leaving do. No, I replied, I can't stand the woman. More to the point, nor can you, so why are you going to her leaving do? They all went, and wished her well, like a herd of hypocritical sheep. It's not like there could be any come-back from standing up to her at that point - she was leaving and never coming back. Unfortunately most people, I have found, either don't have much in the way of principles, or aren't prepared to defend them in the face of bullying and domineering people. And all that does is teach the bully that he or she can get away with it .....

Certainly I think some of the careers I'd be more inclined to go into, such as teaching, were potentially less toxic than they are now.  Sadly my lack of cat herding skills suggests Secondary Education would not be a good fit for me!  And then you have the unfortunate fact that education seems to have turned into complete political football.  So pretty much everybody we knew who went into teaching has now quit.

And in HE it seems there is huge competition for jobs - when I discussed with my Prof. a while back the idea of going back and working in a University, he said even if you had something like 5 notable papers published in well regarded journals you probably wouldn't even get onto the interview list even at a tier 2 UK University.  He said the last lecturer post they advertised they got over a hundred applications from all over the World.  

Do hope you get good support when you have that conversation tomorrow Tom. Situations like this are complex. Needs someone unbiased with insight into ASD to understand the dynamics.

It's really hard to work effectively when colleagues are invading your space. It's professionally undermining but if you get upset then you're the problem. Bullying can be subtle sometimes.

Shame your 'good' colleagues haven't spoken up yet. No doubt they fear being the next one/s to be picked on.

Do try and limit the damage this does to you. Your confidence will be restored once you are working in a benign 'no blame' environment.

I agree, people don't tend to burn out by spontaneous combustion, it's usually because of something.  But I think we are at a massive disadvantage because the toxicity affect us at much lower levels.  The norms somehow seem to filter it out or power through it.

I've suggested to my manager already that there was a probable antecedent to this incident.  The actions of my colleague the other week (after I'd taken her into my confidence and trusted her) led me to be very wary around her.  I was confused by her, because afterwards she was behaving as if nothing had happened.  If nothing had happened, I would have been feeling more confident around her on the day.  Instead, her presence whilst I was dealing with my service user made me jumpy, and quite probably distracted me from taking the correct action.  She, I think, provoked things, too.  When the SU was in the state of agitation she was in, the last thing anyone should have done was sit next to her and touch her.  You need to get your distance.  But my colleague did exactly that - so the SU lashed out at her.  She then used that against me by telling me that I'd provoked the incident by allowing it to happen! 

The problem I'm going to have with that is that it will be her word against mine - and her confederate will back her up.  I won't be able to win on that front, which will basically be a formal complaint.  I've fallen foul of that system before, where the rudeness of the bully I was dealing with was overlooked in favour of my being told that I was simply being hypersensitive to criticism.  They basically closed ranks around her because she had a higher profile job than I had.

I'm going to speak to a member of the behavioural support team tomorrow (my day off).  They understand autism better than anyone else there.  The senior manager who reprimanded me told me 'this can't happen again' - as if I had any choice in the matter.

I have a horrible feeling it won't go well.  There are other staff members who are on my side, and I know for a fact that quite a few of them don't like this particular colleague.  But I think if push comes to shove, a lot of people will keep their heads down and keep quiet.

My score was in the same range - I'm off work with an injured ankle currently but I need to address the risk of burnout when I go back (preferably before). 

Employers often wrongly frame burnout as a personal problem i.e. individual lack of resilience. Burnout generally occurs when the whole system is toxic in some way. 

The most empathic, sensitive person in the team is usually the first to succumb to toxicity. The employer should see this as a warning that they need to fix the system, not as an indication that an individual employee 'can't cope'. 

I sometimes think of it a bit like being a canary down the mine, if things get toxic at work I can't breathe! 

Interesting, thanks.  It's not specific to autistic people, but has the same relevance.

It mentions the Maslach Burnout Inventory.  You can take the test here:

MBI Self-Test

Here's how I did on it...

This article on Burnout highlights that it is often not primarily a 'personal' issue - organisations need to address fairness, civility, working conditions, communication...

I really like the last sentence too - societal injustice can't be fixed by a few mindfulness workshops! 

www.nytimes.com/.../a-solution-to-burnout-that-doesnt-mean-less-work.html

Will do. 

I don't know, but I'd guess that people like us 100 years or more ago would probably have been locked up in asylums.

I often think we are a little unfortunate living in this age. A hundred years and more ago things were somewhat less noisy (though not necessarily better).

I'm not sure about the PTSD but let us know what the GP says.

I found this article, which explains quite a lot to me...

An Autistic Burnout

'We generally don't want to die.

We want to escape.

We want to step out.

The world is an overwhelming place for us - it doesn't have to be, but the way it's set up with colours, noise and lights and people and expectations makes it so.

We lose ourselves in repetitive behaviour, we Hyperfocus, we Stim, we become different characters or act as animals, we script conversations, we withdraw, we hide in worlds inside our heads, we close ourselves off, or equally sometimes explode outwards, we Mask - all in an effort to endure this world we live in, to survive, to find balance with ourselves internally and externally and also, to hide who we we are - to make Non-Autistic people accept us, because we don't find acceptance as ourselves.

This is why we burn out.'

Thanks, Sunflower x

Someone else has brought up the subject of PTSD to explain how I'm feeling.  I'll go to the doctor tomorrow.  Tuesday is looming up like a horrible monster.  I'm managing to sleep, but much of it is alcohol-induced, so it isn't real sleep.  And my dreams are haunted.  Feeling paranoid today.

We're here for you and we understand ()

Thanks, Sunflower.

Who cares about the money when it's your sanity, or maybe your life on the line?  I'd be able to retire next year on a good pension if I'd stayed in one job that was killing me.  As it stands now, I'll need to work for another 8 years before I can qualify for the state pension.  I somehow don't think I'll make it that far.  Either in work, or alive.

I'm going to try to choose life.

Thanks, Sunflower.

Who cares about the money when it's your sanity, or maybe your life on the line?  I'd be able to retire next year on a good pension if I'd stayed in one job that was killing me.  As it stands now, I'll need to work for another 8 years before I can qualify for the state pension.  I somehow don't think I'll make it that far.  Either in work, or alive.

I'm going to try to choose life.

I had one of managers say to me essentially something like "Do you want to get on, or do you want to be right?"  It seemed like a dumb question to me...

I think we have something in common: a preference for sticking to our principals, even if it makes us unpopular. I suspect this kind of things makes the others uncomfortable, because you're not supposed to go against the status quo. Well, I would prefer to be disliked for "not knowing how to behave", than to dislike myself for being a hypocrite.

Unfortunately other people's spinelessness in this regard tends to result in precious little backup for the likes of us.

I had the same when I worked at the County Court, Moggsy.  One of the District Judges was the most pompous, arrogant, irascible and superior of p****s.  He would barely deign to look at office staff if they went to him with a query on a file, and he usually sent people away with a flea in their ear.  Very much a product of the public school/Oxbridge/gentlemen's club system.  He made you feel like you were definitely one of the lower orders.

When he retired, they held a leaving 'barbecue' in the grounds of the court.  I was just about the only person who refused to go, and it wasn't looked upon favourably.  But everyone hated his guts.  And they were all there, like a bunch of toadies, noses up his back end, etc.  Self-serving hypocrites.

Unfortunately, I thing people are mostly cowards when it comes to speaking up. I remember many years ago I worked in an office with an awful tyrant of a woman, everyone loathed her and she was the most terrible bully. No-one would ever stand up to her, apart from me - she would go purple with rage when I would shrug, say "well you're not my boss, so it's nowt to do with you anyway" and walk off (I was 19 at the time)

Well the day came around when she retired, and a colleague asked if I was going to her leaving do. No, I replied, I can't stand the woman. More to the point, nor can you, so why are you going to her leaving do? They all went, and wished her well, like a herd of hypocritical sheep. It's not like there could be any come-back from standing up to her at that point - she was leaving and never coming back. Unfortunately most people, I have found, either don't have much in the way of principles, or aren't prepared to defend them in the face of bullying and domineering people. And all that does is teach the bully that he or she can get away with it .....

Certainly I think some of the careers I'd be more inclined to go into, such as teaching, were potentially less toxic than they are now.  Sadly my lack of cat herding skills suggests Secondary Education would not be a good fit for me!  And then you have the unfortunate fact that education seems to have turned into complete political football.  So pretty much everybody we knew who went into teaching has now quit.

And in HE it seems there is huge competition for jobs - when I discussed with my Prof. a while back the idea of going back and working in a University, he said even if you had something like 5 notable papers published in well regarded journals you probably wouldn't even get onto the interview list even at a tier 2 UK University.  He said the last lecturer post they advertised they got over a hundred applications from all over the World.  

Do hope you get good support when you have that conversation tomorrow Tom. Situations like this are complex. Needs someone unbiased with insight into ASD to understand the dynamics.

It's really hard to work effectively when colleagues are invading your space. It's professionally undermining but if you get upset then you're the problem. Bullying can be subtle sometimes.

Shame your 'good' colleagues haven't spoken up yet. No doubt they fear being the next one/s to be picked on.

Do try and limit the damage this does to you. Your confidence will be restored once you are working in a benign 'no blame' environment.

I agree, people don't tend to burn out by spontaneous combustion, it's usually because of something.  But I think we are at a massive disadvantage because the toxicity affect us at much lower levels.  The norms somehow seem to filter it out or power through it.

I've suggested to my manager already that there was a probable antecedent to this incident.  The actions of my colleague the other week (after I'd taken her into my confidence and trusted her) led me to be very wary around her.  I was confused by her, because afterwards she was behaving as if nothing had happened.  If nothing had happened, I would have been feeling more confident around her on the day.  Instead, her presence whilst I was dealing with my service user made me jumpy, and quite probably distracted me from taking the correct action.  She, I think, provoked things, too.  When the SU was in the state of agitation she was in, the last thing anyone should have done was sit next to her and touch her.  You need to get your distance.  But my colleague did exactly that - so the SU lashed out at her.  She then used that against me by telling me that I'd provoked the incident by allowing it to happen! 

The problem I'm going to have with that is that it will be her word against mine - and her confederate will back her up.  I won't be able to win on that front, which will basically be a formal complaint.  I've fallen foul of that system before, where the rudeness of the bully I was dealing with was overlooked in favour of my being told that I was simply being hypersensitive to criticism.  They basically closed ranks around her because she had a higher profile job than I had.

I'm going to speak to a member of the behavioural support team tomorrow (my day off).  They understand autism better than anyone else there.  The senior manager who reprimanded me told me 'this can't happen again' - as if I had any choice in the matter.

I have a horrible feeling it won't go well.  There are other staff members who are on my side, and I know for a fact that quite a few of them don't like this particular colleague.  But I think if push comes to shove, a lot of people will keep their heads down and keep quiet.

My score was in the same range - I'm off work with an injured ankle currently but I need to address the risk of burnout when I go back (preferably before). 

Employers often wrongly frame burnout as a personal problem i.e. individual lack of resilience. Burnout generally occurs when the whole system is toxic in some way. 

The most empathic, sensitive person in the team is usually the first to succumb to toxicity. The employer should see this as a warning that they need to fix the system, not as an indication that an individual employee 'can't cope'. 

I sometimes think of it a bit like being a canary down the mine, if things get toxic at work I can't breathe! 

Interesting, thanks.  It's not specific to autistic people, but has the same relevance.

It mentions the Maslach Burnout Inventory.  You can take the test here:

MBI Self-Test

Here's how I did on it...

This article on Burnout highlights that it is often not primarily a 'personal' issue - organisations need to address fairness, civility, working conditions, communication...

I really like the last sentence too - societal injustice can't be fixed by a few mindfulness workshops! 

www.nytimes.com/.../a-solution-to-burnout-that-doesnt-mean-less-work.html

Will do. 

I don't know, but I'd guess that people like us 100 years or more ago would probably have been locked up in asylums.

I often think we are a little unfortunate living in this age. A hundred years and more ago things were somewhat less noisy (though not necessarily better).

I'm not sure about the PTSD but let us know what the GP says.

I found this article, which explains quite a lot to me...

An Autistic Burnout

'We generally don't want to die.

We want to escape.

We want to step out.

The world is an overwhelming place for us - it doesn't have to be, but the way it's set up with colours, noise and lights and people and expectations makes it so.

We lose ourselves in repetitive behaviour, we Hyperfocus, we Stim, we become different characters or act as animals, we script conversations, we withdraw, we hide in worlds inside our heads, we close ourselves off, or equally sometimes explode outwards, we Mask - all in an effort to endure this world we live in, to survive, to find balance with ourselves internally and externally and also, to hide who we we are - to make Non-Autistic people accept us, because we don't find acceptance as ourselves.

This is why we burn out.'

Thanks, Sunflower x

Someone else has brought up the subject of PTSD to explain how I'm feeling.  I'll go to the doctor tomorrow.  Tuesday is looming up like a horrible monster.  I'm managing to sleep, but much of it is alcohol-induced, so it isn't real sleep.  And my dreams are haunted.  Feeling paranoid today.

We're here for you and we understand ()