Thoughts on: space travel, life and religions on other planets, and what if AI was banned (prompted by the "Dune" movie)

This weekend I've watched the 2021 movie "Dune", which covers the first half of the first "Dune" novel by Frank Herbert. I enjoyed it as it brought back memories of reading the books many years ago, and it prompted me to think about the universe that Frank Herbert created.

Dune is the alternative name for a planet called Arrakis - a desert planet populated by enormous sand worms who produce a spice called melange, and an indigenous human tribe called the Fremen, but is run by a powerful noble family who harvest the spice, which is extremely valuable. At the start of the story the planet and the spice harvesting have been controlled for 80 years by the Harkonnen family but the Emperor decrees that the Atriedes family should take over, but I won't go into the politics of the story.

Sand worms are a fascinating fictional life form, with a circular mouth full of sharp teeth, and water is poisonous to them. I was wondering if it would actually be possible to have a life form that doesn't require water and is actually weakened and killed by it?

The way that space travel over long distances is dealt with in sci-fi is always interesting to me. In this case, the spice produced by the sand worms is ingested by Guild Navigators and it gives them the ability to "fold" space, enabling quicker travel over long distances. I wonder if we'll ever be able to do this space folding thing without some sort of weird drug?

In this story, AI has been banned and replaced by human "Mentats" who are trained as sort of human computers, with vast memories, the ability to organise huge amounts of data and devise concise analyses. I wonder if humans could ever achieve this, and f so whether it would take an autistic bloodline to produce it?

Religion also plays a large part in the story. There is a female order called the Bene Geserit who take the spice in a ceremony that allows them to access the memories of their female ancestors, and they have gifts such as "The Voice" which when used allows them to control others. There is a prophesy that one day a male Bene Gesserit will be born, who will also be able to access the memories of their male ancestors. Also the Fremen on Arrakis treat the sand worms as Gods, calling them "Shai Halud" (from the Arabic Shay Khulud, meaning thing of immortality) - they believe that the sand worms are a physical embodiment of the God that created and governed the universe. I wonder, if there was intelligent life on other planets would they have a religion and /or a creator story?

This post is in place of my film club thread, as I wanted to get people who haven't seen the film involved in thinking about this stuff.

However if you have read the book or watched the film, feel free to post a review of them too. The film is currently available on ITVX.

Parents
  • In this story, AI has been banned and replaced by human "Mentats" who are trained as sort of human computers, with vast memories, the ability to organise huge amounts of data and devise concise analyses. I wonder if humans could ever achieve this, and f so whether it would take an autistic bloodline to produce it?

    I think if autism were "farmed" and the autistic children with savant level brains "trained" then this would be quite achievable.

    The ethics of it are a different thing, but humanity has been remarkable flexible with this when it suits them.

    I wonder, if there was intelligent life on other planets would they have a religion and /or a creator story?

    I've read a lot of sci-fi in the last 5 decades and the more I think of it, the more I think we may not even recognise other life forms for what they are. The things that happened in the formation of life were so random and evolution so convoluted that the potential for our carbon based life forms is just one fluke of nature.

    How many other flukes have created life in forms we do not consider? Silicon based life is a closer proximity but what other chemical combinations could create an ecosystem that could sustain a growing entity? Mycelial entities are already showing evidence of incredible connectivity and ability in scaled ou up to kilometers across.

    How about hive minds? Insects can produce activity that appears bordering on sentient with a single controlling entity but the intelliegence seems collective rather than individual.

    Tartigrade creatures appear incredibly robust and can survive in space. If evolution took them to a larger and more complex form to develop intelligence, then they could be a native, space tolerant life form.

    How about energy based life forms? They are touched on in several Star Trek episodes and the possibilities are just as credible as intelligence forming from the primordial soup on Earth.

    A fascinating subject but very limited by our ability to get out there and look at the moment.

  • I've read a lot of sci-fi in the last 5 decades and the more I think of it, the more I think we may not even recognise other life forms for what they are.

    That is a good point, in which case if life on other planets was not carbon based it would have different needs, like maybe not requiring water. 

    I also often wonder where intelligence and sentience come from - as you say it's fascinating but we will probably never know, certainly not in our lifetime.

  • I also often wonder where intelligence and sentience come from

    You can see more about what intelligence actually is when you follow the AI debate at the moment.

    Ultimately it is easy to see that human intelligence isn't really that special, it is just a logic system with a load of learned experience to base its decision making from.

    when you look at how we evolved from the earliest single celled life forms to having a brain, each step is a building block along the way with some experience being build into the "instinct" part of the brain through simple evolutionary selection. Those with this bit did better than those without so it became dominant.

    I imagine something similar could happen elsewhere using different building blocks.

    What fascinates me is if there could be life forms that are geological in nature (eg continents or even planets/moons) - we would even be looking for something like this and their tools for interacting with the outside would be so different to ours that they would ignore us as we ignore bacteria.

    Also, what would extrapolating our evolution millions of years into the future yield? Would we even be corporial at the end of it all or would we find ways to become no longer limited by our bodies.

    Looking at physics of the 4 dimensions we live in shows there are many other dimensions we cannot sense in our existing forms. There are 2 more time dimensions (possibly) so time travel and dimension travel are aspects that a creature could evolve to manage so how would their minds work? If time is non-linear then most of our daily actions would seem irrelevant.

    It can bake your noodle to think about this too much LOL

Reply
  • I also often wonder where intelligence and sentience come from

    You can see more about what intelligence actually is when you follow the AI debate at the moment.

    Ultimately it is easy to see that human intelligence isn't really that special, it is just a logic system with a load of learned experience to base its decision making from.

    when you look at how we evolved from the earliest single celled life forms to having a brain, each step is a building block along the way with some experience being build into the "instinct" part of the brain through simple evolutionary selection. Those with this bit did better than those without so it became dominant.

    I imagine something similar could happen elsewhere using different building blocks.

    What fascinates me is if there could be life forms that are geological in nature (eg continents or even planets/moons) - we would even be looking for something like this and their tools for interacting with the outside would be so different to ours that they would ignore us as we ignore bacteria.

    Also, what would extrapolating our evolution millions of years into the future yield? Would we even be corporial at the end of it all or would we find ways to become no longer limited by our bodies.

    Looking at physics of the 4 dimensions we live in shows there are many other dimensions we cannot sense in our existing forms. There are 2 more time dimensions (possibly) so time travel and dimension travel are aspects that a creature could evolve to manage so how would their minds work? If time is non-linear then most of our daily actions would seem irrelevant.

    It can bake your noodle to think about this too much LOL

Children
  • Have you heard of the Gia Hypothesis?

    I first saw a film about this in 2001 (Final Fantasy, The Spirits Within) which covered this in a very action film sort of way, but planted the seed for curiosity.

    For the others who may be interested in this concept, there is a good description of gaia here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

    I'm curious if there could be a whole microcosm of creatures such as this with smaller but still massive scale to them. Where would we even know where to start? How could we communicate etc.

  • What fascinates me is if there could be life forms that are geological in nature (eg continents or even planets/moons) -

    Have you heard of the Gia Hypothesis? It posits the inorganic parts of the planet's systems interact with the organic living parts as part of a self regulating process that maintains life. The planet itself is a kind of organism.