Culture wars

NAS65321 said:

I have been to places in London that were 80% immigrant, thats not my country, but it has been allowed to happen all over the western world.

I'm afraid what this displays is your lack of knowledge. London has always had very large immigration populations that come in waves.

I came from a small, very white Scottish town to living in London and a number of other big cities internationally and the distory of these has been very interesting.

About 20,000 years ago there were no humans at all in the UK so we are all, ultimately, immigrant descendants. This is importany to remember.

About 100BC was the Roman Invasion that brought with it its own wave of support staff and services, resulting in a "modernisation" of many areas, increased access and the development of London.

I believe there are even claims that some arabic Jew from Bethlehem was her at some point by the name of Jesus something or another. Maybe this set a bad precedent by buying property and setting up their own places of worship - who knows (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8380511.stm)

Later in the 5th century there was a wave of Irish settlers (mostly up North), and down South the Anglo Saxons (mostly Germanic in origin).

The Vikings made quite a scene in the late 8th century but stayed on to form many settlements but it was the Normans in the 11th century who made it their own after conquering large areas of the South.

After this there were sizable waves of Flemings (not the kind that run off cliffs) followed by the Romani in the 16th century.

Next in the 17th century were the Hugenots from France, fleeing religeous persecution.

Then the pace really stepped up with the British East India Company in the 17th century - the British Empire provided the means of mass transportation and as it conquered territory after territory around the world it broght back workers from places like India/Pakistan.

After losing the American War of Indendence many of the foreign troops Britain used were rehabilitated back to the UK resulting in many Africans arriving there.

The Irish Potato Famine producd the next big wave of Irish immigrants in the 19th century, followed by Russian Jews fleeing persecution.

Early 20th century UK experienced 2 world wars where empire & ally populations plus refugees caused significant short term changes in immigration but since then there have been many controls placed on the process of allowing people UK citzenship.

Labour shortages and empire ties brought many blacks and Indians/Pakistanis here to work then they quite naturally wanted to bring their families.

As international travel became more accessible and affordable, refugees became much more mobile and with Britain having a reputation as a safe haven we have seen many, many waves of refugees at least in my lifetime.

London certainly has been the focal point for the arriving waves of immigrants and they will often setup ghettos as they have very little cash to start with and seek the comfort of their own people, but as they gain a foothold many will move on to more affluent neighbouroods.

This was seen with the Jews in the East end - then as they moved on they were replaced by Indians / Pakistanis / Bangladeshis/ They have been moving on as well and are being replaced by, well workers mostly - due to the massive rise in house prices making peoperty in the UK out of the reach of the vast majority of immigrants.

I lived in one of these areas when working in London in 1990s up to the 2010s - they are nowhere near as densely populated by one ethnic group as it appears as the majority are city workers who are in employment for long hours so you never see them.

What you do see are the families, the recent arrivals and those who are not yet allowed to work. They are visible because they have time on their hands and their culture leads to them being much more social than the average Brit.

Society is changing but it has always changed. You just have a rose tinted glasses view back to a time when you didn't know more and your world felt it was "right". In reality you were just living in a white ghetto of immigrant origins itself.

Society is fluid and constantly evolving. Embrace the change or get washed away by it.

I can answer many of your questions being a white middle aged man. I will try not to stray into too much politics , or upset anybody. My political views are very mixed , right wing on immigration and net zero and left on economey and the rich. 

Basically change is the biggest issue. I grew up in the 70's and 80's in a 95% white society on a council estate. Back then everybody worked, being on benefits was shameful, Christianity was the norm(I am agnostic BTW) and people were basically all the same. If you were non white British you fitted in with everybody else. That situation really still existed into the laste 90's being slowley eroded. I have been to places in London that were 80% immigrant, thats not my country, but it has been allowed to happen all over the western world.

One of the tings that really annoys people like me is we are not supposed to have any prejudice and we are not supposed to have any opinions that are now main stream. To those on the left I am considered racist because I see color, its how my brain is wired, it wont change. I dont activley do anything related to that persons color but I notice it and may have stereo typical feelings about them. Millions of us are the same. Its like with the Trans stuff , you can identify as a chicken as far as I care, but you are still either a man or a woman. 

I have a big mistrust of relegion, I was baptised and went to a standard non religious school where we sang hyms and prayed. I believe in nothing, its just not for me. I am all for relegious freedom, but also the right to critizise relegion. This is why Islam is very much disliked by people like me. They are stuck in the 7th century, treat women and 'gays' apallingly and take no critisim.

Before Christmas we relocated 200 miles to a rural area. Its like stepping back 30 years. The only non white faces you see run the post office, and indian and Chinese restuarants. I think the last census showed about 4% ethnics out of 4000. Thats how it used to be, no mosques, no GP surgery translators like where I came from, its a reall community and I love it. 

I hope I have not upset anybody but the OP did ask the question. Sorry about any bad spelling too, not my strong point!

Rob

ArchaeC, I guess it does depend somewhat on you define a christian, I think many of the core values are common to most societies and religions, you can replace belief in Jesus with the prophets or central beliefs of many world religions and differing forms of spirituality.

I'm not sure what a cultural christian is, perhaps you could add a bit more?

You're right, they all trace back to Abraham, Islam traces itself back to the other son of Abraham, the christians and jews to another.

I think I saw some of that research in the Guardian or somewhere.

It all seems to be very mixed up, a great big othering. I wondered what would happen when we left the EU, who we'd blame for societies ills, it would seem to be anyone who supports the rights of minorities, refugees, trans, etc. Even those of us who aren't offended by the things self styled cultural warriors are offended about. Personally I'm not offeded by mosques, synagogues, churches or other temples or shrines, as long as I'm not made to worship, I will treat them all with respect. The people in them, who spew hate in the name of thier god, not at all, but the majority, yes I do.

I think it is impossible to say if we are a Christian country unless one defines ‘Christian’. Is a Christian someone who believes in Jesus Christ? Alternatively, a person who considers themselves a cultural Christian, but is an atheist? A person who believes in the divinity of Jesus, but who doesn’t go to church? I think if you classify a Christian as someone who treats others with respect, who values the dignity of every human, who believes in the divinity of Jesus and attempts to imitate his compassion and care for all - those who are different, those who are cold and hungry, foreigners, people of every race and nationality, then we are not a Christian country any more. 

TheCatWoman said:

I think they forget that Islam has the same roots as Chrisitianity and Judaism, they see the old testament as thier foundation too.

I don’t think Islam sees itself so much as having its foundation in the Old Testament (largely the same, in part similar, in part different to the Hebrew Bible), rather it considers the Hebrew Bible a sacred text containing divine revelation. Islam, Judaism and Christianity share common but distinct ancestry, with origins in Abraham. 

TheCatWoman said:

I also think that a lot of what's put forward as culture wars are really just a bunch of people who are too lazy to think about the feelings of others

King’s College, London has completed some research on Culture Wars.

I was going to tell a joke but past experience tells me that my joke would go down like a lead balloon and in print, would sink even deeper.

Is that what we are doing here? It made me laugh!  

Pelagius was a British born churchman 354-415CE, who believed that people were born good and there was no such thing as original sin and that people achieved heaven through good works, charity etc and chose to do well and live good life. His biggest spat was with Augustine of Hippo who was what we would describe as orthodox catholic, Augustine ended up getting the Pope onside and Pelagius was eventually accused of heracy. He also had spats with St Jerome. Many places held Pelagian beliefs and various bishops were sent over to stamp it out, but it never really went away, Britain and Ireland were strong holds of Pelagianism, which is one of the reasons why the late Roman and early "dark age" English church is only mentioned in passing in many histories of te period.

Peter, please don't tell me what I'm talking about, I'm not talking about a race war and having lived through the times when political correctness came along I have adult memories of it happening and took part in many debates and discussions about it.

With free speach comes respsonibility, the responsibility to not be ignorant or bigotted, not to deliberately be hurtful in your language, to be aware of others and respectful of them. Words have consequenses as well as actions do.

TheCatWoman said:

We keep being told, especially by right wing political parties that our Judeo-Christian western culture and values are under threat from various places mostly Islam, but then I think they forget that Islam has the same roots as Chrisitianity and Judaism, they see the old testament as thier foundation too.

That's not what most people mean when they use the term culture war. It's mostly 80/90s cultural norms of nearly everything goes free expresion vs 10s/20s woke / political corect policing of speach.

You're talking about a race war I think. Enoch Powell "Rivers of Blood" type stuff.

TheCatWoman said:

I also think that a lot of what's put forward as culture wars are really just a bunch of people who are too lazy to think about the feelings of others, who want to hurt others and proscribe thier liberties and choices.

If somebody elses feelings deprives me of the liberty to be myself and forces me to wear a mask then to me that's oppresion. If I have to walk on eggshels for fear of being expelled from X, Y, Z if I say the wrong thing I'm living with a metaphorical gun against my head. I hate no one, no race, no gender, no sexuality. But people who are over sensative, who try to tell me what I can or can't find funny or what topics I can or can't express opinions on, well these people fill me with rage. This is especially true when it happens in spaces created spicificly for weirdos like me to be ourselves.

TheCatWoman said:

people believed in the wrong sort of christianity

An interesting statement.

can I ask on what logic you conider it wrong please? I'm not supporting it (as I don't know enough about the differences in these spliter groups) but who made the judgement call on what is right or wrong and what believe systems drove their values at the time?

TheCatWoman said:

I've come across lots of different version of christianity

It is funny that so many people still consider Christianity to be a single, immutable religion when it comes from such a tattered and bloody past. Even today there is the catholic / protestant conflic right on our doorstep (whatever happened to IrishInManchester, he was always so vocal about this) and the desire for some to have a totalitarian military / church state to eliminate all other religions..

Then you have the church in the US supporting the Orange Jesus as he breaks all the commandments and terrible acts of cruelty and all they do is wave their little flags and shout "make America great again".

I'm not sure if religion attracts stupid people or if it makes them stupid sometimes. There are too few escaping the gravitational pull of the corruption to convince me one way or another.

Its one of the things I don't understant either, I used to wonder if I'd been taught a childrens version of the bible, when confronted by all the power everything stuff. I was not brought up to be religious my first real contact with any religion was school, where we had to do christian stuff in assembly and to me it was just another of those weird things school made you do, like calling dinner, lunch.

I'd really love for someone to explain to me what the believe western values to be and where they came from and what the link is with christianity?

Hypatia of Alexandria wasn't beaten to death with pottery, she was skinned alive, by a mob, when I read about it apart from the shock and horror of it, it reminded me of the Taliban or Daesh.

Reading about the period I do I've come across lots of different version of christianity, in it's first 3 or 4 centuries as an official religion of the Roman world, it was riven with strife and infighting, two of the most interesting ones to me are Pelagianism and Arianism. Pelagianism was probably one of the big reasons why Britain was seen as in need of christianisation, because people believed in the wrong sort of christianity

Thank you for sharing it. Divide and rule / conquer too imo.

I'm for once, glad to be here.

That John Cleese bit of video was the wisest things I've seen for a LONG time.

Thank you Iain, for finding that and bringing it to us. 

May I point out that Christianity in it's most pure form involves simply the study of the life of Jesus Christ and making an honest effort to emulate his lifestyle, and learn from his teachings.

At no point did Jesus ever exhort us to beat female mathematicians to death with crockery, or dunk witches in ponds, or set fire to women. How people can conflate that sort of behaviour with the basic christian knowledge is a complete and unpleasant mystery to me. Same with the Crusades. It's like people call themselves Christian without ever actually reading a gospel!!

The russians ATM are blithely murdering people wholesale in the name of "Orthodox Christianity" . It beggars the mind how an entire buch of people can so MISS the POINT about the teachings and example of Jesus Christ.

I think I need to go and take a rest.. ;c( 

TheCatWoman said:

We keep being told, especially by right wing political parties that our Judeo-Christian western culture and values are under threat from various places

John Cleese has a sketch that explains it perfectly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXCkxlqFd90

Essentially it give your culture a convenient enemy to blame everything bad in the world on and thus make you feel good about yourself.