Autism and issues with employment

Yup, this sounds like a job spec from any vacancy I have ever been assigned to recruit for.

What most employers want:

- Good interpersonal skills

- Excellent communication skills

- Ability to multitask

- A team player

- Ability to network

- Ability to understand indirect instructions and work under pressure

- Flexible and adaptable to change

- Ability to 'bend' the truth and not adhere to their 'honesty is the best policy rule'

Every job I've had has ended in burnout.

May favourite type of co-worker. Someone who you can just get your head down with and get the job done without the small talk.

I remember I observed them and couldn’t understand why they break rules. I only enjoyed working with one manager, who was an aspie (in McDonald’s) she chose me to help her with inventory, we both made it really quickly and only kept exchanging informations. 

I agree, companies are looking for people who are suitable. I somehow feel instinctively that “young dynamic team” is not a good fit for me. I’m at this incredibly lucky position that I do tasks that don’t require much communication and even if - it’s the basic one and I’m valued for what I do. I have anxiety over possible losing my job although my boss told me they wanna continue with me. I’m being seen as a bit eccentric but also hardworking and helpful 

To be clear, the rules being applied in a hard and fast way are part of the security measures. In fact, if more people applied the rules and guidelines strictly, social engineering attacks would be a lot more difficult.

You may have heard of the term 'drafting'. It applies to someone following through a door behind you. When a building has key card access for security a common vector for attack is for a malicious actor to ask the person walking through a protected door to 'hold the door'. The correct action in this scenario is to close the door behind you and make the person behind you also use their keycard to open the door. Sure there is an exception if you're colleagues who know each other, but even then it's not 'supposed' to happen.

Apply this thought to a school. A malicious actor can socially engineer entry to a protected area of a building by relying on the neurotypical and social niceties that *seem* reasonable. In security terms though, it is a vulnerability.

It is for that reason my honest belief is that those people who are more rigid and hard and fast with rules and guidelines should in theory be very well suited to security fields. In fact in the stage door example the role was originally called 'Stage Door Security' for that reason. For some odd reason it later became 'Stage Door Receptionist'.

My point though is that supervisors or colleagues in the same company can often have negative reactions to what are actually the 'correct' responses to a situation. As a result, I tend to feel that it can be a source of frustration for those of us who are more rigid, rule followers, or black and white thinkers. Don't misunderstand, I can see the shades of grey, I just don't agree that there's reason to stray into them.

Alien0n3arth said:

I think that it’s because during the interview NTs chose automatically a person who has good communication skills, looks in the eyes, reads the expressions etc. here we loose.

As someone who has done a lot of recruiting over the years I can confirm this is true.

We are rarely just looking for someone who has a skill that can sit in isolation and do a job without interacting with others.

Almost every job has regular contact with at least the team who share the same purpose and the candidate needs to be able to have a flow of information to and from the team in order to deliver this.

This area is the biggest point of friction for autists - we don't typically interact well, don't pick up on the less explicit signals from NT colleagues and can easily offend others unintentionally. Strict adherence to rules can also be a problem ironically as knowing when rules can be bent is very useful when you need to deliver a project on time / in budget and there become grey areas on what is acceptable to do.

Most hiring managers have had bad experiences when hiring ND staff who struggle with the stress even when all accommodations have been made for them. This does cause a bias to develop suggesting that this ND group has a much higher "failure" rate as a hire than an equivelant NT so a subconcious avoidance of them is common.

I've heard senior management describe it as the hiring process being analogous to buying new tyres for your car (the car being the team in this analogy) - would you buy tyres that have a known predisposition for blowing out when in use or getting lots of punctures? No, go for the ones you know are more likely to be reliable.

My pedantic nature pointed out that this would amount do discrimination at which point the management walked away - I guess it is one of those grey areas where rules are bent.

It is a good point you made.

I’m underemployed I believe, but I know that a job that would have suit my skills and knowledge would be too much for me. I wouldn’t do it well because of my stress issues and overwhelm. If you are on a high responsible post, you can’t just refuse talking on the phone because you have problems with it, you have to be professional, make small talk, show appropriate expressions, take right and quick decisions. Plus mostly driver license is a must but I can’t drive. These are tasks which would lead me to depression or worse. So I’m happy that I have a job that suits me. It’s in a warehouse, in fact it is often too loud, but I use earplugs and just do my job. Sometimes I hear “oh you have graduated. Why don’t you make a good career but sit in a warehouse of a hardware store?” I don’t really know what to answer, but I just say I’m happy there. 
mir is concerning that do many autistic people can’t find a job at all- those who are able to work. A person with high needs can not work at all. I think that it’s because during the interview NTs chose automatically a person who has good communication skills, looks in the eyes, reads the expressions etc. here we loose. This is just my opinion based on my experience and observations. I think I got my job, partially because I forced myself to look the boss in the eyes and smile a bit. It wasn’t that bad, his eyes are hazel and not that penetrating. 

martintheactor said:

I now look back on this with the benefit of diagnosis and wonder if it is autistic literal thinking? Is it just me? 

It does sound like you were applying the rules in a hard and fast way but in NT society the rules are often bent depending on the situation and most of us just don't get the subtleties involved in this decision making or are so inflexible that our steadfastness makes us a problem.

It is the nature of society - much more nuanced than we can handle.

martintheactor said:

When working a stage door job I refused to make up a replacement access card for a staff member without their supervisor's authorisation. That was after all the rule.

It would depend on the staff member I guess - the more important they are then the more the rules get bent for them. Other reasons to bend the rules would include if you liked / fancied them or if you knew delaying them would cause knock on problems for the production.

I've been lucky in that I have had an opportunity to study interactions and work out most of the unspoken rules over time, but even if I could write a book on the subject I don't think autists with this rigid mindset would risk bending the rules.

It does seem to be a contributing factor in why so many autists are not in full time emplyment (I think 32% of autistic young adults are employed compared to over 70% of NTs in the same age group)

My assessment of the situation is that the issues with employment actually start before employment.

The definition of 'smart casual' for a job interview. It's so bafflingly vague it has always driven me nuts. At least when it was a case of always wear a suit, the rules were clear. 

Likewise, in application forms it's not always clear the purpose of the questions being asked. Everyone seems to want different things, and there's no consistency in the application process.

In interview there's the rise of 'curveball' questions and 'secret tests'. So much so, Randstad has a section on them: Interview curveball questions & how to answer them | randstad | Randstad UK for my money these questions are entirely irrelevant to the job application process. Recruiters tend to think they're being clever and unique. I can work very well with someone without liking or socialising with them. 'Fitting in' with a company seems like balancing the scales against those who are in anyway slightly different.

In employment, on reflection I think it's largely that most managers and employers seem to think its okay to just 'bend' the law or the rules. I once walked out of a job in a bar. The law is clear - it is illegal to knowingly serve anyone who is drunk. A staff member who serves such a person can legitimately be fined, and get a criminal record alongside the venue. In my case, this guy had been drinking double scotches for three straight hours. He was so far past drunk that I refused service and removed him from premisis. The assistant manager on duty tried to force me to admit I was wrong and to serve him a free drink. So I walked out. The pub license holder later had a conversation with me and tried to pull the whole 'we know it's the law, and you're right, but we need to look past it from time to time'. 

I now look back on this with the benefit of diagnosis and wonder if it is autistic literal thinking? Is it just me? 

In a less contentious issue - 'right' and 'wrong' ways of doing things. When working a stage door job I refused to make up a replacement access card for a staff member without their supervisor's authorisation. That was after all the rule. I got so much flack for refusing that it frustrated me and still bugs me. It felt like once again people were just trying to decide the rules on the fly. 

Honestly, the more I reflect, the more I realise that having been a freelancer most of my life might just have been my way of trying to avoid the craziness that is the traditional job market. I seriously struggle to work out how more companies aren't taken to task over what I think may well be good examples of discrimination.

In terms of my adjustments, which is my request for flexible working, there is no reason for my employer to have refused, and therefore I will be valid in taking it further. I have to first attempt to exhaust all options before taking contact ACAS, who will provide early conciliation. If conciliation is not successful, I can then take it to employment tribunal. Ultimately, it is up to an employment tribunal to determine if the request is reasonable in the eyes of employment law and the equality act. But flexible working is a very common reasonable adjustment for neurodivergent people, but often any refusals are because the manager is ignorant.

I agree that it might not be reasonable for a “front door” receptionist to ask to work from home as a reasonable adjustments, but we don’t know what type of receptionist this person is… and I think the OP is making the point that their employer isn’t offering anything, or considering the lighting which is affecting them. 

Honestly I feel the same at my current work they say we "support you" but honestly because I am autistic I get the feeling they want to get rid of me for simply being different 

Andy said:

I’m now asking for a reconsideration on my adjustments they refused. If they still refuse, I am going to take it further. 

I don't know how much further you can take this I'm afraid - ACAS have a good article on the subject:

https://www.acas.org.uk/reasonable-adjustments

An employer does not have to make adjustments that are unreasonable.

Any requests will hinge on this issue - for example as a receptionist you would need to be onsite to greet visitors etc so working from home is not a reasonable request. If you were an admin assistant then it may be different as some tasks can be done that way.

As for the employment rate, a little research shows:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-forgotten-women/202406/the-autistic-employment-conundrum

According to Autism Now, only 32.5 percent of young autistic adults are employed, while 78 percent of neurotypical young adults are employed. (2024 stats)

So compated to neurotypicals only 2/5ths of autists are working in this group,

I think the rate does drop off as you get older as more autists cannot sustain the effort.

I don't see it improving as the impact of AI is likely to result in many more people needing new jobs as we cannot compete as effectively compared to our NT peers.

I recently asked my employer for some reasonable adjustments and have faced nothing but difficulties. Like Mr T said, there is still a lot of ignorance, and stigma that still exists. There are some good employers out there, but they are hard to find, and often its an uneducated manager who is the issue. 

I’m now asking for a reconsideration on my adjustments they refused. If they still refuse, I am going to take it further. 

Unfortunately, there is even some ignorance within the autistic community, as when I shared my particular issue, I had some judgemental comments.

This is why the stats are so poor, and I don’t think it’ll get any better 

Briefly my story is after 30+ years employed as a scientist I was diagnosed and ask for reasonable adjustments. It has not been positive for me in any way.

Be prepared for ignorance, unconscious bias and downright discrimination.

My spoons are all used up for today so I will engage more on this thread tomorrow.