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Is this correct and is it a reason for bullying?

Lotus

(I posted this research yesterday on the thread "Is autism an excuse for bad behaviour?")

 I discovered that researchers in a 2011 study gave autistic and neurotypical people this scenario:

"Imagine this: Janet and her friend are kayaking in a part of the ocean with many jellyfish. Janet had read that the jellyfish aren't dangerous, and tells her friend it's alright to swim. Her friend is stung by a jellyfish and dies. - Is Janet to blame?"

Their results showed that autistic people usually said it was Janet's fault while the neurotypical people said it was just an accident . The researchers concluded that this showed that autistic people were focused on the result, rather than the intention of the person involved, and was due to "theory of mind" (not being able to imagine what someone is thinking or feeling)

(Edit: I've just been thinking about this again and I'm not sure if the researchers were wholly correct in their conclusion. Perhaps the autistic participants did put themselves in Janet's place and knew they would feel guilty in that situation, which made them decide Janet was guilty - which means it's about how they would feel, not just about the result of it?)

Although I would feel terribly guilty if I was Janet, factually I do not believe the fault is hers as I believe we all have a responsibility to look after ourselves (apart from children and disabled/vulnerable people, but the scenario did not say the friend was either a child or vulnerable) The friend had a choice to research the area before travelling there, and to decide whether to swim in an area with unfamiliar creatures.

But I've been thinking further about this theory that neurotypical people focus more on intent than outcome, and wondered if this is the cause of bullying? Do bullies not have the intention of hurting people? Those who upset others will often claim it was "just a bit of fun" and they say people should " man up" or "not be such a wuss" but I think that for autistic people the intent doesn't matter, if someone is hurt or upset by someone that is wrong. I know that I'm always horrified to think I've upset or hurt someone.

What are your thoughts on this?

Parents

  • I can think of many examples of bullying where there is no possibility of any intent other than making the other person suffer.

  • in reply to Deleted User

    I'm sure you are right, but it's a mystery to me why people want to do that. I suppose the intent is to make themselves feel more powerful?

  • in reply to Lotus

    It seems that way.

    It seems to be a cliche that most bullies are people who feel powerless themselves and make themselves feel better by making others feel powerless.

    I’ve never been susceptible to physical bullying (my emotions are very slow to react so I never give them the satisfaction of appearing frightened), but I have definitely been taken advantage of or been the butt of “humour” by people who really should have known better (eg “friends”). I still don’t truly understand their motivation.

    Incidentally, my instinct when I read your first post was that Janet was indeed to blame.

  • in reply to Saza

    Thank you very much for those kinds words, but I was not looking for sympathy and am at peace with it. And again, I totally agree with you, A. I could not live with myself. 
    (I like “Em” by the way, thanks for the nickname, sounds nice!)

  • in reply to Emmalephant

    That's terrible, I'm sorry you had to experience that. Like you, I just don't understand how people can do that to each other. If I did that to someone i would spiral into a pit of self loathing.

  • in reply to Emmalephant

    Hi Em….

    I’m sorry that happened. It shouldn’t have - the bench : the memory : your parents dismissing it : you dealing with it on your own. It’s one of those ok:not ok - both things being true - things. 

    Sarah x

  • in reply to Deleted User

    I agree, bullies are oftentimes trying to compensate for something else by making others suffer, but like Pixiefox I find it hard to grasp that there are people who actually just want to hurt others. 
    I experienced pretty much the opposite of what you described. Although I’m an easily affected person, I don’t respond adequately to insults and actions I don’t understand because they’re just not true. I also refuse to stay silent about something like that since my mind constantly tells me how unjust it is. 
    Thus, when two boys started to pick on me daily, I told on them. It didn’t change anything for me and so I always came back to my favourite place where they would eventually pick on me again. Not willing to let them take over my spot, I told on them again, but nothing was done against it. The verbal insults evolved into hitting and kicking. And since I didn’t react by being frightened they continued to escalate. It ended with me being momentarily unconscious because my head hit a plank on the ground while being pushed down. Finally, the teachers did something to prevent that.

    It still didn’t leave a lasting effect on me, because I still didn’t understand why they were bullying me. I brought it up in front of my parents years later and they said, I never told them anything. It was irrelevant for me.

    Sorry, that was not topic related, just an interesting observation.

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  • in reply to Deleted User

    I agree, bullies are oftentimes trying to compensate for something else by making others suffer, but like Pixiefox I find it hard to grasp that there are people who actually just want to hurt others. 
    I experienced pretty much the opposite of what you described. Although I’m an easily affected person, I don’t respond adequately to insults and actions I don’t understand because they’re just not true. I also refuse to stay silent about something like that since my mind constantly tells me how unjust it is. 
    Thus, when two boys started to pick on me daily, I told on them. It didn’t change anything for me and so I always came back to my favourite place where they would eventually pick on me again. Not willing to let them take over my spot, I told on them again, but nothing was done against it. The verbal insults evolved into hitting and kicking. And since I didn’t react by being frightened they continued to escalate. It ended with me being momentarily unconscious because my head hit a plank on the ground while being pushed down. Finally, the teachers did something to prevent that.

    It still didn’t leave a lasting effect on me, because I still didn’t understand why they were bullying me. I brought it up in front of my parents years later and they said, I never told them anything. It was irrelevant for me.

    Sorry, that was not topic related, just an interesting observation.

Children