Published on 12, July, 2020
Why does it seem that women do the majority of the work in relationships? It seems that we do the childcare, the housework, the emotional work of keeping everyone happy-ish, be the appointments and social secretary's, the shoppers and cooks and have full time jobs? It's not just me that thinks this, many studies show the same thing. I've met so many women who feel that they don't have a partner, but an extra child, this often lead to the breakdown of the relationship.
Its starting to make me think that all hetrosexual relationships are inherently abusive, I can't speak for same sex ones as I've never had one.
I know I'm going to get flak for this post, but I'm going for it anyway. I'd love to hear from people who have successfull relationships and what they're secrets are, not that I want another relationship, I'm just curious.
My counselling work was with young people, but I saw the fallout of toxic parental relationships, but also how those spill over onto young adult children.
I agree a relationship needs constant updating, people change over time and sometimes you just grow apart, or in some cases revert to a family type. My experiences of this have been that I'm initially seen as fun, different and exciting bcause I don't really conform to social norms, probably due to autism, but also because I question things and I'm not that conventional in the things I enjoy and want to do or not. Later on this difference causes problems, I become less exciting and fun and my differences become obstacles.
At least with your therapist being familiar with how things work in the UK will make something easier, for instance, that a GP is a gatekeeper to other NHS services and you can't just make an appointment with someone higher up the chain, or that some medications they might be familiar with are unavailable here, or a GP won't prescribe the equivalent and may indeed be unable to prescribe them.
For myself I wouldn't use an online therapist, not just because of the technological barrier, but because it wouldn't feel right and nor would I ever be tempted to see someone remotely except for the odd circumstance where a face to face meeting would be difficult.
TheCatWoman said: I'd also be worried that having a counsellor from another country, one that I'm not living in and one they're not familiar with,
In my case the therapist spends several months a year with her daughter in the UK and continues her practice there with patients around the world. She has a solid understanding of the UK having lived there before so luckily the issues you refer to are not present.
I understand where your need for the traditional face-to-face approach to counselling comes from and it is entirely reasonable. There are different benefits to doing it this way.
For myself and those I know who use therapy sessions, all but one use remote sessions to fit around their busy lives and mobile lifestyles. Horses for courses would describe the difference well.
TheCatWoman said:its a hard thing to come to terms with, that your partner the person you love/loved, who you planed to spend the rest of your life with, is spiteful, underhand, guilt tripping and see's you as "The Problem" without ever thinking that they have any part in it.
I get this and it is present to a degree in most coupes with very long term relationships I have had close contact with.
I think a lot of people fail to recognise that relationships need to be constantly worked on, balances reassessed and difficult stuff talked about. A lot of this is either a hassle or can be very uncomfortable to face which seems to be why one partner or the other will take the easy way out and just stuff the resentment down until it becomes toxic.
You probably came across plenty of this in your time as a counsellor.
Maybe I get nihlistic in my views at times and experience has a nasty habit of supporting this, but at the same time you have to look to the good and try to make things better to keep that candle lit in the darkness.
I don't think it's about inertia as not wanting change, its a hard thing to come to terms with, that your partner the person you love/loved, who you planed to spend the rest of your life with, is spiteful, underhand, guilt tripping and see's you as "The Problem" without ever thinking that they have any part in it. They maybe depressed or have some other underlying issue going on, but they have to acknowlege this and actively seek help and engage with any help thats offered. There maybe a load of issues surrounding any admissions of ill health, mental or physical often family ones, if a family member finds out that someone is suffering they can be extremely unhelpful and come to the conclusion that the partner is the problem. Afterall they were fine before YOU came along, I've had personal experience of this sort of scapegoating and it's really hard to deal with, especially when they are presenting a united front as a family, like some sort of pyschological picket line ranged against you, alone, no family to back you up. When you're feeling vulnerable, at a low ebb and probably emotionally exhausted, its very hard not to buckle, to stand in your own light and truth when all around you are people telling you you're wrong and selfish.
Of course the aspect to relationships are peoples unconcious expectations, many people have a relationship ideal and the perfect partner, some Disneyfied idea of happy ever after. They find someone they like, that they love and genuinely care for, then there comes a point where the fantasy intrudes and they try and cram the partner into the ideal. It doesn't work, the relationship ends, but the fantasy stays and the whole sorry process happens all over again, same realtionship, same patterns, different person.
If having a therapist that far away and on screen only suits you then fine, but it wouldn't suit me and probably not others. I know I'm techinically incompetant, but I don't have the sort of equipment that you do to enable that sort of thing to happen, I wonder how many others find such a remote theraputic relationship satisfactory? Another reason I would find unsatisfactory as both counsellor and client is that you're so limited in the tools you can use, empty chair exercises would be difficult, so would using objects to help people express themselves. It would be hard to see if a partner who was off camera was doing something unhelpful let alone challenge some behaviours? I'd also be worried that having a counsellor from another country, one that I'm not living in and one they're not familiar with, would make it harder for everyone with the "yes, but" game. There will be things that aren't available in one country, or just done differently, like how you access health care for example, no matter how much you explain something the therapist may doubt your truthfulness and you might see them as being unhelpful, lacking in empathy and having unrealistic expectations, or you might be playing the Yes, but, game.
TheCatWoman said:As a former counsellor not being able to see a clients body language and the minutae of facial expressions would make it very difficult
All my sessions are done over videoconference which can be done over mobile phone, tablet or computer (so long as it has a web cam).
There is no full body view with this so you do lose this aspect, but then you get to see the head in much more detail if you have a big screen.
My therapist is in Canada, about 8,000 miles away from me so it allows me to keep seeing them.
TheCatWoman said:Most people arn't like this, they will fight back, but subtely, they will undermine, they will try and get friends and family on their side, they will use dumb insuboardination or they may genuinely be a bit stupid and not understand what or why you're upset and want change, after all things are fine for them.
Inertia is incrediby hard for most people to break, especially when what lies on the other side is such an unknown. I guess it is a big part of the human condition.
By the way thank you for the informed discussion - this is eye opening for me and a pleasure to discuss with you.
If I'm paying a shed load of money to see a counsellor then I want to see them face to face, I don't see how couples therapy in particular can be satisfactory done remotely. As a former counsellor not being able to see a clients body language and the minutae of facial expressions would make it very difficult. Mirroring a clients body language is a very important tool, if I mirror the body language of another then I get to feel where they're carrying pain, it informs my responses to them. For a client to see mirroring helps them to feel heard and understood, when I mirror a clients body language and feel where the hurt is carried and it it makes me feel, when I ask them how it feels to move out of that position its helps them to release the hurt. It also leads onto how we feel safe and not safe, what steps we're able to take to feel OK. I knowpeople have done telephone counselling for years, personally I hated it, both as a client and as a counsellor.
Yes we do have ultimate control, but it often dosen't feel like that, we may only know that things arn't right and not know how make them right or at least different. To get someone to a point where they can feel able to take back control of their lives can take quite a long time and of course that assumes that the other partner is willing to change or at least sit back and allow change to happen. Most people arn't like this, they will fight back, but subtely, they will undermine, they will try and get friends and family on their side, they will use dumb insuboardination or they may genuinely be a bit stupid and not understand what or why you're upset and want change, after all things are fine for them.
TheCatWoman said:Relationship counselling is great, if you can get it, many areas have a long wait, if your partner won't go, and you go by yourself then really its about managing a breakup.
You should be able to get an online session with a counsellor at a week or twos notice - I never had to wait long for either one-to-one or couples counsellors when I started with them.
If your partner won't go then it does point out they are unwilling to work on the relationship which is a pretty clear indication that it is already over.
TheCatWoman said:I wonder if male/female relationships are inherently abusive.
One thing my counsellor was quite adamant about is that abuse will only happen if we allow it. There may be situations where the other partner has all the power or where the alternative is unpalatable but we still have the control over whether we allow it to happen to ourselves.
Short of you being bedridden or locked up with no access to a phone then you have options.
It is never acceptable in my opinion.
Thats why I said it dosen't matter if theres an equal split if theres a common sense of purpose and respect.
I'm not really up for blackmail, I think thats another one of the four horsemen of relationship breakups. I've not given in to blackmail when it's been attempted in a relationship, I'm more of a Nelson 'Publish and be damned' sort' I can't think of many people who would feel ok about being blackmailed and punished. I'm not sure many relationships are as transactional as you seem to think Iain, most people don't sit down and agree a schedule of chores, it's far more haphazzard than that and changes as lifes journey progresses.
Relationship counselling is great, if you can get it, many areas have a long wait, if your partner won't go, and you go by yourself then really its about managing a breakup.
I've had several relationships over the years and this has been a common theme though all of them, maybe I'm a bad picker and choose the wrong guys? But I've seen this happen to so many women of around my age, I know it's not just me, it's why I wonder if male/female relationships are inherently abusive. For all the people that have posted, even those in successful relationships, no one has challenged this or said why their own relationship/s are successful.
My wife and I both work full-time and share the chores (she does the laundry, I do the cooking, and we both do cleaning/tidying). I didn't think it was unusual to try to be fair. My wife and I have been together for 22 years, and my disregard for the sexist steroetype that 'women must do the chores' is probably a big reason why she still puts up with me.
TheCatWoman said:what do you do when your partner just refuses to do his share, when you have stood up to him, tried sitting down and talking calmly, he agree's that he's lazy and nothing changes, what options do you have then?
If it is important to you then you stand up for yourself.
If you never agree the allocation of tasks in the first place then you are without a leg to stand on, but assuming you do agree this then they break their side of the deal then you have the option to tell them this is unfair and if they don't do what they agreed then you will either:
1 - stop doing the tasks that you do that will impact them the most (eg cooking, laundry). Withdraw bedroom benefits and other nice things they will really miss - hit them where it hurts so they can see you are really serious.
2 - tell them that you want couples counselling or it is over.
3 - tell them you want a trial separation and they better move out if they don't start
If they are going to be really nasty about it then up the stakes and be willing to follow through. You are not their servant and if they respect you then they better start demonstrating it.
TheCatWoman said:I think partnership is the key word, it dosen't matter if there's an equal split of labour and money if there's a common sense of purpose and respect.
It isn't about an equal split - it is about a fair split. Chances are one parter will earn more, the other may have more spare time, one may enjoy cooking and the other not.
It is all about agreeing the divisions and respecting that agreement. Once this goes (as you point out) then contempt is close behind which is a real relationship killer. One of the four horsemen of the apocalype for relationships our counsellor calls it.
Having been the one who ends up nagging, then picking up the slack and then getting really fed up, what do you do when your partner just refuses to do his share, when you have stood up to him, tried sitting down and talking calmly, he agree's that he's lazy and nothing changes, what options do you have then?
I think partnership is the key word, it dosen't matter if there's an equal split of labour and money if there's a common sense of purpose and respect. It's when the respect goes that relationships end, I think respect is as or even more important than trust.
TheCatWoman said: Is that really to much to ask?
I fully agree - any partnership should be that - tasks assigned on a fair basis on who has the capacity to do them.
My personal opinion is that if one party is being lazy then they need to be called out on it and pushed into doing what they agreed to do. If there was never an agreement then that is on both parties to sort out.
I think in general men are lazier than women and have different standards which leads to the situations you describe. If you have house "rules" that both signed up to then one side is breaking these and you need to have agreed a way of dealing with this.
What does tend to happen from what I have heard from others is that the women will pick up the slack, nag the partner for a while then move into sullen, resentful mode which contibutes to the breakdown of the relationship. Both sides are to blame then - the man for being lazy and the woman for not standing up to him.
It is a pattern I've seen too many times unfortunately but it has led me to try to be a better partner to avoid it.
I think it depends on the household and growing up, circumstances, lots of factors. My parents are a lot like this: my dad works long hours, whilst my mum works part-time and then does a lot of household tasks, chores, general house admin. BIt would seem "gender role conforming" just knowing that info, but it misses out a lot of context on this "setup". My mum has BPD and can't work full-time, so works part-time. My dad suggested this so she can prioritise her mental health, which she would not have been able to do if my dad didn't work full-time on the pay he gets.
Naturally, my mum is in the house more and does the chores as she is the one available to do it, whilst my dad picks up any other chores in evenings once he finishes work.
Their relationship is built on support, treating it as being a team. It's not perfect, but it's prioritised me and my brother, and I think we turned out ok. :-)
I don’t mind doing my share, yesterday consisted of stripping the bed, two loads of laundry washed and dried on the line. Hoovered and washed floor. Went food shopping and remade bed. Cleaned sinks and cooker hob.
My wife works longer working hours than me, she did do all the child care when the children were young. I actually enjoy cleaning something until it’s surgically clean. Who ever invented duvet covers should be horse whipped.
I never saw the point of dolls either, especially baby dolls, freaky things, I didn't like them as a child and still don't.
I agree about gender norms Iain, but what when the woman is doing all the caring, childcare and household stuff and is doing a full time job?
It's not been my experience that the men in these relationships do more of the heavy work or the bins, in my experience the women do these things too, all the gardening and decorating etc, whilst the men spend most of their time and money on "toys" like the latest TV or games console, or stuff to service their hobbies, whilst the woman pays for most of the household stuff and all the childrens expenses, like new shoes and school uniforms. What's worse is when you've been working two jobs and doing a college course and he's not working, that everything is still left undone, there's no food in the house, no shopping, cleaning, washing up or gardening has been done and the bins are overflowing. I'm not that houseproud, I just don't want a carpet that crunches underfoot, or a kitchen floor that you're feet stick too, a bathroom that you don't have to clean before you can clean yourself. Is that really to much to ask?
Good for you Tigernew. One of my dog walking acquaintances has been having to be the "housewife" and carer after his wife had a knee operation and was imobile for a time, he said he'd rather work 12 hours in a coal mine, (his former job). He said he dosen't know how we remember it all and it's relentless and they're elderly and don't have children at home, he said he couldn't imagine what it would be like to have to do all that and look after children and do a full time job. I have known a few guys who have decided to take time out to stay at home with their children.
TheCatWoman said:Why does it seem that women do the majority of the work in relationships?
I think if we made broad generalising comments about other groups there are many people on here who would take issue with it, and that should apply to men too. There are loads of us and we are all different.
I can think of a few reasons:
1 - you are grom Gen-x or borderline Boomer if I recall correctly - this was a social norm when our age groups grew up as the female presence in the workforce was much smaller than it is now.
There imprinted gender roles tend to stay with us unless we conciously work to change them.
2 - the minds of men and women tend to have different ideas about what is acceptable with standards of cleanliness or orgnaisation, so the male will typically only load the dishwasher when he runs out of bowls, wash clothes when he has no socks left etc.
I believe any couple need to take the time to establish ground rules and review them regularly to make sure the workload of day-to-day life is fair. I don't mean equal as there are many cases where some chores are not typically favoured by women.
Men will typically get the heavy or messy jobs - digging the garden, mowing the lawn, taking out the havy. stinky rubbish bag etc. I'm sure most women would be quite capable of this but in every relationship I know of these sort of tasks are delegated to the male or stronger partner in the couple.
In this day and age there is typically not a lot of difference in the working overhead of each sex so this is unlikely to be a factor for working couples.
For couples with young children then the dynamic can be very different. It becomes much more complex with the stay-at-home partner having more time with the kid(s) so they are expected to time manage and do more of the household chores while the other partner is out making money. They have the stress of the commute, the workplace and often the pressure of keeping the job to keep the roof over their head too.
These different pressures leads to some resentment normally of the other partner not appreciating how hard each others role is.
I digress - but that is why I think there is a disparity. Men tend to be slobs and women houseproud is what it boils down to in most cases.
My partner is in his sixties, but has a strong sense of fairness.
I think men of our age group had wives that usually gave up work when they had a family, so they worked while the wife looked after the home, and for some people it's difficult to change their expectations when they are older.
Hi there I’m male and have come out of work since January (highest earner) to care for my family, do the chores shopping appointments etc as I we decided this would be best for our family. My wife has always done most of the caring and sorting the house so it was decided it was my turn. I don’t envy the women that have to do everything as well as work. My full time job now is being the best dad/husband I can be. In my time off I also had a diagnosis for autism which explains why I am the way I am as my new obsession is my family