Published on 12, July, 2020
I’m a 49 year old man and I was diagnosed with ASD last year, my ASD is pretty much textbook Asperger’s, high functioning, organised, sensitive to bright light, sudden noises and unexpected events.
I have become increasingly aware of my difficulties navigating societal expectations and the inconsistencies of the world we live in, like many people with ASD, I need clear instructions and rely on a self built framework to understand the world.
This morning I attempted to discuss a particular topical issue with my partner (who is neurotypical as far as we know) with familiarly unsuccessful results! So I thought I’d talk to the ASD community about it instead…
There are so many inconsistencies in society with regard to behaviour, the most obvious example as I see it are football managers can (and do) scream and shout and swear at referees regularly but if I raise my voice I’m committing ‘common assault’. I could write a huge list of similar inconsistencies, The BBC has a very clear agenda towards equality and inclusivity which is commendable but they promote and televise horse racing which is blatant animal cruelty…I really could go on and on!..
But focussing on this mornings topic, which is the disparity and inconsistency between two events, the first being the recent worldwide shaming of Luis Rubiales (President of Spanish football who kissed a player on the lips during the World Cup celebrations), the second being a conversation between my partners Sister and her male friend, where he openly talked about his masturbation routine.
I am really struggling to understand how the former is an offence resulting in criminal prosecution for sexual assault and Rubiales being forced to resign and being publicly shamed, and the latter being ‘just a conversation between two friends’.
Why aren’t both events treated the same way? I fully understand that there are differences in circumstances, but what is the criteria for judgement? Rubiales knew the woman he kissed and it was something that appeared to happen spontaneously in a moment of shared euphoria, in that context I feel that he’s been harshly treated, however, if society says that his actions where unconsentual and therefore ‘assault’…OK, I understand, the parameter is consent…but my sisters friend hadn’t been given consent to reveal information of a sexual nature…but this is considered perfectly acceptable…so it isn’t about consent then?
So I asked what the difference is, and I was told one event was colleagues and the other friends…so it’s about the relationship status (colleague or friend) Meaning if you know someone well enough to consider them a friend you can say anything to them, regardless of it’s appropriateness? Surely not.
Personally I should add, I wouldn’t kiss a woman on the lips without consent or reveal information of my sexual activity to a woman! Because I wouldn’t feel comfortable with either and I would consider both acts inappropriate.
it’s a minefield out there! And there’s no map, no consistency, and seemingly no logic to it.
I would really love to hear from others about this, with ASD or not, sadly I can’t talk to my partner about it because it descends into an argument where I’m accused of overthinking or my confusion and need for an explanation/discussion is simply dismissed.
Craig
yeah societies hypocrisy annoys me too.it is a system of one rule for me, different rule for you. its ok if the celebrities or ruler classes do bad thing, but you do same thing and your fined or off to jail. and those very celebrities and their followers glorifying that thing would hate and demonise you for it when they are doing it themselves. the world is bonkers and always will be.
Rocketboy said:a conversation between my partners Sister and her male friend, where he openly talked about his masturbation routine.
As Tris and Debbie mention, context is essential to understanding when it is acceptable to talk about intimate subjects. This is one of the areas we as autists often lack the instinctive understanding of the rules.
I educated myself in this using the following book:
The Unwritten Rules of Social Relationships - Decoding Social Mysteries Through the Unique Perspectives of Autism - Temple Grandin, Sean Barron (2005)ISBN: 9781941765388
In this conversation there must have been either a level of intimacy between the two people (at least on a conversational level) where they felt this OK to engage in the topic, or there was an implicit exchange that approved it. e.g. your sister saying "I don't get it why men can self pleasure 3 times a day - I never do" and her male friend could respond with "I can tell you if you want to know").
Sometimes this openess to explicit content has been agreed in a previous discussion so the barrer is removed.
Where we struggle is that we don't get the invitations because we are often seen as weird and others feel less comfortable with this sort of conversation with us.
I found myself having some incredibly open discussions with women over the years by using the "I can tell you if you want to know" invite when they are talking about something they don't understand and i do - around initimate subjects, but I make sure they explicitly agree to it and I keep it from becoming personal or suggestive to keep any element of percieved threat out of it.
Mostly it is "no thanks".
It really helps to be able to mask as a bit cheeky but not to have any element of hitting on them, but with a lifetime of masking practice I found this easy.
Not that many neurotypical men are open about this sort of stuff with women so it can be refreshing if there is a feeling that it is informational exchange only, we don't expect to hear about their habits and we don't make any suggestion of interest in taking it further.
Only my experiences and I don't think they are that common for autists.
Dear Dear Craig,
I have total empathy with you and your life living with a NT wife as an autistic. It is almost impossible for me to converse with my wife owing to her knee jerk reaction to take an opposing view. I say very little within my 'marriage'.
What is wrong IS WRONG ! If our social 'norms' have degraded to the level you describe with your sister and her friend, what hope is there for the next generation.
Rocketboy said:the second being a conversation between my partners Sister and her male friend, where he openly talked about his masturbation routine.
Rocketboy said:but my sisters friend hadn’t been given consent to reveal information of a sexual nature…but this is considered perfectly acceptable
As you say, consent is key.
I'd loathe anyone talking to me in that way that I wasn't in an intimate relationship with, but if the person concerned was happy to have that happen, then it's OK (so, no, it isn't generally considered 'perfectly acceptable').
However, if the subject wasn't happy having the friend talking to them about it, then they need to say and set parameters in the relationship and then they don't consent to it.
Whether the person then respects that lack of consent is another matter.
If they don't, hopefully the relationship might break down because of it.
Respect in all relationships is key.
These scenarios aren't the same thing however on several levels, one being physical assault, one being unpleasant words without physical contact.
For one thing, there is a giant difference between grabbing someone and forcibly kissing them on the mouth and talking about a personal subject.
But that aside, yeah, context is everything. Your boss talking about his masturbation routine is sexual harassment in almost every case. And it would cross the line into being inappropriate and uncomfortable in most friendships too. Every relationship has a line of what kind of behaviour is okay, but that line by default is in a very different place in a professional relationship. If you're in doubt, playing it on the safe side and following the other person's lead is the best bet.