Rule 13: the last nail in NAS's coffin?

Today completes an important step for the National Autistic Society. Today with Rule 13 they complete the abdication of responsibility for supporting autistic adults reaching out for help.

You may remember in 2021 that the National Autistic Society closed its general helpline. There was a thread about it on this forum. As was pointed out at the time from that point onwards this forum became the only port of call at the National Autistic Society for help for people who did not qualify for one of the remaining helplines.

And the remaining helplines pertain to children in school, children leaving school and parents of autistic children. The National Autistic Society has become a defacto children’s charity leaving autistic adults out in the cold.

Now not content with refusing to help autistic adults they now seek to reduce autistic adults ability to help each other. I fully admit that a bunch of amateurs on an autistic support forum is a poor substitute for professional help. However the vast majority of those seeking such help now have nowhere to go professional or otherwise.

Some of you know that I also brought a lawsuit against an organisation for discrimination. I reached out to the citizens advice bureau and got no useful help. I reached out to the EASS and they said that they couldn’t help me because the other party would not engage with them. I wrote to established academics with a background in discrimination law and autism and they said they couldn’t help me.

Yes I rang that autism helpline back when it existed, back when I tried to get some justice and they said we can’t help you. But at least I spoke to someone who admitted that he was supposed to be able to help me. That helping me was what he was there for.

With regard to the law when you bring a case for discrimination most of the time legal aid is not available. This is in part because the majority of discrimination cases go through the small claims track which is intended to operate without lawyers.

Something similar applies to the health service. It’s very easy for autistic people to get sidelined in the health service particularly if they are bad at articulating their needs and concerns. Again I know this from personal experience.

At this point if autistic adults come to this forum or the loved ones of autistic adults come to this forum and say they are having difficulty with the law or discrimination or a medical issue rule 13 interpreted strictly means that we can provide no helpful advice other than pointing to sources of help that in fact do not exist.

For quite some time now I have run a website dedicated to helping autistic people defend their rights and oppose discrimination. I chose not to include a forum on that website because I was aware that policing it could involve a substantial amount of work. However this development has persuaded me to change my mind. So I’m announcing that areyoualien.uk now has a forum for autistic people. The focus of this forum like the website is advocating for autistic rights in government policy and the law and opposing discrimination. You are all very much welcome there.

  • A beautiful dialogue between Ettore Majorana and Enrico Fermi at night, while Majorana was in his office thinking too many things at the same time.
    
    Fermi asked him to help him.
    He and his group of nuclear physicists hadn't solved a problem in 5 days.
    
    The brick wall said Fermi we can't knock it down.
    
    Majorana replied :_"It depends on what that wall is made of!"
    
    Fermi looked at Majorna and her notebook.
    
    She asked if he already had the solution:
    Ettore replied: maybe yes, maybe not ENrico.
    
    
    Then he thanked him because Fermi had given him only one thing to think about and not the thousand he thought before!
    
    Majorana told him that in the morning he would give the solution.
    
    
    Who had already written them for days.
    
    
    
    §
    
    
    Majorana was probably Asperger's with Stellar iq according to the international stoics.
    
    §As a student he calculated a Fermi problem in just two seconds in notebook (1.21 I think the solution).
    
    Fermi took up the whole blackboard.
    
    1.21 wrote then!
    
    Many minutes later!
    
    
    §A dear thing ... ghosts pass through walls!
    
    A very nice answer they gave themselves then! :)
  • You forgot under?  I'm a tunneler out of preference.

  • As I thought?  You have never been faced with the wall that has already collapsed on top of you.....and you have no idea how deep you are buried....nor what you will face IF you can claw through the rubble to the surface again.

    I'm not trying to be cute with you here Peter.....I'm merely trying to convey a sense of hopelessness and fear that I often see on these pages, where logical and dogmatic advice is simply pointless.

    Sometimes, a bit of human love, connectedness and reassurance can mean ALL the difference.

  • Well in-theory if you go through it, whilst your head is in-the-game as-it-were, your return-journey will be a breeze, as well as the journeys for those that follow you..

  • Around or over those walls are easier and less painful than "through".

  • Oh if my response to a brick wall in life was to stop and give up I think I would have ended things a long time ago. For better or worse my response to a brick wall tends to be to slam my head into it repeatedly.

  • Firstly..oof. But I do agree that any light is much-appreciated when you’re in the dark. I have been grateful for such sustenance in the past, so maybe I’m being a little defensive, because I feel as if there is in-theory one-less string to my proverbial-bow.

  • Peter, you write like someone who has never felt truly hopeless and lost in life.  Lucky you?

    When I was on my "mental knees," the smallest and simplest words of kindness or acknowledgement were enough to sustain me.

    Generally, I hate platitudes and vapid reassurances...........but not when EVERYTHING looks utterly hopeless!  At those dark, dark times, a kind word can mean the world.

    We are not a "one size fits all" community......and our members do not (I expect) always seek or want hard-nosed assessments of the facts that they can see for themselves.

    Just my opinion.

  • Yep there’s definitely some cavities developing in this trusty-old maw..Confused

  • Yeah. Completely useless. You can't reassure people things will be alright if they probably won't. Especially if their best chance of getting a good outcome is taking action. That's actually unethical. Distraction doesn't really work via a web forum and validation is a hollow feeling if it's impotent to act. It's almost like rubbing salt in the wound.

  • Well I think that the only surefire routes that remain are: Validation, reassurance, reading the post, and distracting with something else; then its just a case of the mods stamping a Samaritan signpost on it.. 

  • The spam function is frustrating. And frankly its discriminating too. I suspect in your case the fact you're writing english as a second language is causing more of your posts to be flagged. That's arguably discrimination on the basis of race. I'd give you some advice about what to do about that but evidently I'm not allowed. Stuck out tongue

    I strongly suspect the mods will put their heads in the sand and won't stick their heads above the parapet until the next controversial thread pops up where some one 'sharing their experience' or providing 'information' or 'support.' At which point the issue of when support is advice will come up again. You see unless you define advice quite narrowly as saying something like "I think you should do this" it's hard to define what advice is.

    A person could come to the forum and say "X, Y and Z happened to me and I don't know what to do." And I might respond to them by saying, "Well I can't advice you about your situation but in hypothetical situations where X, Y and Z options can be A, B and C and if P A has some pros and if Q C has some cons." That might be interpreted as advice. They certainly might infer a course of action from it. Or I might say "I was in a situation where X, Y and Z happened and what I did was A, B and C because P and Q." Any sort of constructive support, anything short of saying, 'well sucks to be you,' could be potentially interpreted as advice. And frankly I'm not interested in offering people mere sympathy and I'm sure they're not here looking for that either.

    So mark my words this will come up again. The mods will ignore 'support' until they think the support is suggesting (abet implicitly) a course of action they don't approve of and at that point the support will magically become advice.

  • Two things:
    
    U a for those who rate community posts.
    
    Some of your posts ended up in the spam box!
    
    I don't know if there is still a response to a dispute.
    
    If so, give me more time, and excuse me because it just didn't appear to me.
    
    They were different (many) I thought they were all accepted
    
    Thank you
    
    
    §
    Peter: I like the way you write and think, the feedback is trusted.
    
    For me you have my trust.
    
    §
    
    I would like to read your posts here.
    
    Maybe all together we will be able to understand each other better even on the rules.
    §
    
    Sorry for the first part, but now after reading the spam I've seen so many NAS messages and it's a bug in my software for which I apologize.
    
    §
    
    For the rest ; I do not conceive that there are people in bad faith, nor wickedness.
    §
    
    I struggle to understand these things.
    
    
    I always think positive about users.
    
    §
    
    Then there will be those who disappoint me.
    
    Patience.
  • @Peter.Hi(.I try to reply on trolls.So they have always existed.Clear that on a small forum they are devastating.In the Forums where I have written so far they have been a bad occurrence, consider that there are many people with mental disorders.Some do not they don't even do it out of malice in my opinion. Others yes. If I can always give you my opinion, there are support forums for those who create new ones. And you try to ask those for advice on how they do it. § Sorry, it's very clear to me what you write.While it's not me, I'm sorry.§It's true about not knowing you.But in my opinion the problem is not only that.NAS for example from what I understand has a solid basis of credibility gained over many years .Then in the forum.§It has a small user base.I prefer a small base .Because they will be valid users.§The diagnoses of autism are too many.Some will not be of autism, but of something similar. there are many syndromes. And up until 5 years ago our number was small. § Many autistics have comorbid diagnoses, and things intersect. § I would also like to clarify some findings. It does not correspond to reality, the fact that valid diagnoses cannot be made ,. That is, in addition to Precision Medicine. Where, between simple and targeted blood tests, genetic tests can also be done. SI can directly and immediately understand both, for example, disorders, syndromes, aniseed, not only anxiety, autism, comorbidities, depressions. It is enough for doctors to insert the right requests to their colleagues and to look for specific markers. This is valid for any problem of all types. The diagnosis exists, and it is also a hyper-fast diagnosis. § In my country we have a system that in some Regions works wonderfully for minors. It can be diagnosed very early, or in a range of two years (late) or in adulthood for a fee or on research. §Therapies ditto: there are many and for minors it is It is essential that they are diagnosed immediately. The improvements are incredible. So that no one is psychologically discouraged, I am referring to the parents. Always have faith § At least with us, there are valid diagnoses in this. But one must not go beyond the age of majority after everything becomes so difficult. § The UK is a Nation of absolute importance in many cases. Often they are exemplary. Sometimes, like everyone else, they have problems. § Our Healthcare functioned but then the last Governments made a mistake by ruining it. § Treatment, diagnosis and therapies exist and there is much more of which we do not use.§As regards what the other users have written to you, there are many things that I agree with.I don't like it but I have read.§You are years old here, it also means that you, Peter, are definitely a valid person, (I understand it from the way you write ).Only that you don't have a strong base like a forum like this.§You could make use of forming groups on facebook and and those are also very important.Then there are other sites as well.The important thing is to help people.§The public of some siti is biologically very old (Even if we have peculiarities that don't make us age in our brain structure. intelligence is mixed but does not become crystallized, it remains fluid, then the neuronal interconnections are different from what is thought for NTs, but fora every brain works like this. Except for the fact that our structure is completely different from theirs. Neurons cannot only communicate with the synapses in agreement, but also on very distant and inverse areas. A very old friend has recovered from a heart attack that led to a serious stroke. § But something wonderful happens even for neurotypical people in a phase of serious crisis .

    §

    Troll problem, ask the forum, I still doubt that without any basis it will be possible to form an extended group of autistics.
    § The rules: In my opinion, some can be revised, but rest assured that the freedom you enjoy here with us is we really dream of it!§Write something and you risk recall and ban immediately.Here, however, you appeal and they evaluate it afterwards.However, the forum leaves you a certain space that you would not have at all with us.§The rules applied to us autistics are a double weapon cut. If too peremptory, the discussion is abandoned. § Of course, if the user is clearly incorrect, then it must certainly be regulated. § Leave the discussion free. therefore according to the management of respect and good faith, avoiding flames, and always being ready to assert yourself is fundamental. The management of the community also depends on us, I meant that. Then the rules: whoever interviews does a lot of work because they have to read everything the published.Therefore it is not pleasant.§Even writing things in which you film the user is not pleasant§Therefore do not think of a group of harassed users, and of a forum conjugation fguppe as harassing.§We are in a place which without rules would have closed immediately. § A non-indexable space can be created in the forum, but it is only intended for users who do not want to end up on the internet. § Many of my posts are on the internet, but they are helpful. And I am pleased.

  • I would say you only really need to exclude trolls or indeed closing entire form to deal with trolls when there’s a lot of them and they’re all working together. My point is that’s not the situation here. It’s not the situation in the other forum I’ve set up either.

    however if a habbo hotel situation occurred that made self policing unrealistic the mods here would be as powerless as I would be on my forum. That was my point.

  • IP is associated with a mail.

    If a user can always change IP, there are already devices that do this, he must indicate his identity in the email.

    Unless he's a hacker.

    So one person among a thousand of us.
    §

    I think that at most one of us can resent it and not want to write anymore.

    The reverse would happen: then I don't know how to identify with people who do these things.


    Unless I agree precisely to sign up, I wouldn't do it dishonestly

    *You know maybe, this is a projection of a personal reasoning, in us autistics it is absent.

    §
    Then in real life there are also despicable people.
    §
    Their friends
    Usually we are people who do not have many social contacts.

    Socialization is a huge problem for us.


    Then there are other inconveniences and people will have 4/5 friends.

    Of which perhaps none of these inclined to harm.

    §
    Maybe I start from the idea of not contemplating hatred and resentment, or anything like that.

    I am amazed at human behavior.

    *You could easily be right about this.
    §
    I like the passage in your post where you write that most people are well-intentioned.

    Maybe some are wrong.


    §

    The direct passage of some computer system reactions, therefore of the algorithms, can be revised.

    §
    I apologize because yesterday I had not noticed the revision of my posts, and therefore the acceptance.
    §
    I tend to trust what you write.
    Logic 1: not trusted.

    Then the presence in a forum is useless

    Logic 2: you trust, and you try to help if the person asks.

    Or at least if it is considered in serious difficulty.

    Logic 3: trolls.

    Which have always existed.

    But which are usually rejected by a healthy community.

    §
    It happens with fans.

    In my soccer team that won the championship, the coach ran to stop the teasing at the opponents.

    People immediately listened to him.

    Because what is fundamental is the social basis of people.

    If this is healthy, refuse bad behavior.

    §
    Also consider that the forums are increasingly frequented by older people.

    The young ones attend them only in the minority.
    §
    They don't like in-depth talks.

    Sometimes I think that not even in real life they are useful, rather they are harmful.
    §
    On the forums I meant that the Community must understand by itself that a troll, or other wrong people should be marginalized.

    §
    As far as I can see here, the forum is small, and some of you write really well.

    I wrote in Forum Italiani Universitari of over 100,000 people including students and professors.

    But also in others: the trolls have always lost and gone out, if they came back anyway then they got tired by themselves.

    §

    For me, kind and peaceful communication is essential.

    Very fair play, the rest doesn't belong to me for example.

    But I don't think it belongs to the Forum.

    §
    Let's get to the rules.

    Those of a forum are always self-protection of the forum itself.

    Because the forum is the most important thing.

    §
    I am writing to you a stone's throw from the Ferrari Corse headquarters.

    The motto of the team is that the team is important.

    Not the best driver.

    That has its day while the brand remains in history.

    In these years we are bad.

    But the local people always look for the good of the team.

    That is, the environment is healthy.

    And here no one ever wants to lose.

  • @Peter : Accept my apologies.

    But in this forum my pc doesn't insert the right formatting.

    §

    Meanwhile, it's not my language, I don't think like you (I think) but through images and I already translate into Italian 2 times.

    Listening and responding.

    The rest in me is very fast: Even if I'm dysgraphic, and I have ADHD so my mind is constantly working.
    §
    Here I can't express myself as in Italian where if I commit myself my posts are perfect, I correct them at least 10 times first though.
    §
    I was explaining to you some very strict rules in Italy.

    §
    At least that I've seen: they work well.

    §
    I state one thing: those who write in the forum for the first posts cannot even send messages, they have access to some areas that are trusted by us users.
    §
    I'll try to write you in points:

    IP if you change it you can ask for a verification by the authorities if the person creates harassment to others.leave no trace, nothing on the web leaves no trace.

    Even if you change your IP.

    A good hacker would succeed.

    A forum user is usually not a hacker.

    It works perfectly.

    There is a Postal Police which takes care of it in unfortunate cases
    2) IP: they can be changed.

    But I assure you that users are short-lived if they are not honest
    3) I don't know how many posts he has written, but there has never been a minimum measure.

    This is because it also depends on how we behave.

    Then you know, dear Peter, everyone helps the moderators with their work, so in case we exclude them pending action.

    4) A control by the users themselves would be desirable.

    Usually, with us, if a user writes wrong things, or allows himself to annoy the community of the forum, he has everyone against him.

    Also because in psychology forums there are very fragile people, some, when they need psychological help, almost always have at least one user who makes them think so they can calm down.

    The night is the worst for them.

    Bad consequences are also avoided, sometimes badly needed posts appear.

    5)
    The advice to view other forums and copy the useful things in the regulations I think would be possible
    6) rules or algorithms are introduced to avoid many problems.

    7) In our Forums not only can you not go overboard in Off Topic, but you are warned as soon as possible. after that there is only the BAN.

    Whoever comes back, by the way, we recognize him.

    By how he writes.
    From how he behaves and much more.

    8) Maybe you wrote it Peter.
    *I think an autistic person can make mistakes easily.

    And not even realize you were wrong.

    So many rules to follow and especially if you change them confuse people.

    And in any case, since the rules and moderators are too strict, many quality users from us do not write in the forums, but in groups for example.


    The rules are less strict.

    I was writing in a special group on fb and there were about 30 of us.

    Every time I read I learn from others.

    Usually the level of the Autistic forums is much higher than any other NT.

    §

    Then my passions led me to write in thematic forums of different types.

    9) I received several flags in this phase that I can't understand.

    For me it becomes stressful like this, because I don't have a clear way of understanding.

    It's not good for posts to disappear and go to stand by.

    If I'm wrong, it's never wanted, but at the same time if I'm wrong I would like to understand where and apologize or rewrite the post by deleting the annoying part.

    Knowing that the 10th of this month may not be there stresses me out a lot.

    I think not only of me.


    10) I was disconcerted that you resented a rule, because maybe that rule already existed as a whole, but it wasn't updated and clear, or they simply do the same as we do.

    Many of us unsubscribe from forums.

    They don't even think about re-subscribing.

    If they are not made free to write .

    §

    My last posts in Italy are from 5 years ago.

    Precisely because there is no room for freedom.

    Then also because the forums here are unfortunately for the over 40s.

    Difficult for a non-elderly person to write in a forum.

    §

    In a post that is under investigation here in the thread I thanked the moderation for the help, as I had decided not to write anymore.

    They were super nice.

    That's why I came back.

    §
    I find some of your high-level interventions.

    Written by intelligent people over average.

    §

    I didn't explain well.

    Clear that the self-government of us correct users, which I think are even more than 95% is desirable.

    I meant as much as possible to help each other understand if this is wrong.

    Or to avoid flames, or similar things.

    Be patient my thinking is much more complex than I can express, and it is not clear.

    §
    I ask a question to all of you: why should we close a forum for trolls?

    In my experience, they are the ones who are excluded if anything.

  • That's still an issue no matter what rules you make. You ban someone they make a new account. Ban the IP then they use a VPN or internet cafe. Or get their friends to raid the forum on mass. Say 4chan targeted us with some habbo hotel style raid. All we could do would be to close the forum until the trolls got tired. You have to assume most people on a forum are at least well intentioned.

  • It’s not on you, it was only a matter of time, even if it was the  trigger, which it likely wasn’t, it certainly doesnt encompass all of the factors..:)