Published on 12, July, 2020
Over the course of the last two years, I was able to form some friendships through Twitter. Through reaching out to autistic people, I was able to create bonds like I had never had before.
I am an autistic male and I did predominantly reach out to autistic women/femme people. The problem was I did this too much. Unbeknownst to me I was coming on too strong and trying to reach out to too many people.
Last month, some screenshots of conversations were shared publicly. Conversations I'd had with other people. It became a huge Twitter storm for a few days and I lost my entire support network.
I own what I did. Without wanting to use my autism as an excuse, through misreading things the conversations became inappropriate (sexual in nature) and I realise that it was just not appropriate to speak to or about women in that way, regardless of intent.
I did a statement but ultimately I knew I wasn't going to make amends so I came off all social media and basically disappeared. I knew I just needed to work on myself. I have an autistic therapist which is helpful and I have three professional contacts I speak to but very occasionally (once a week if that).
There are some silver linings. My social media usage was incredibly unhealthy anyway - refreshing Twitter basically all day and checking my follow list to see if anyone had blocked me was just wrong. I was beginning to enjoy engaging in the autistic community on Twitter a lot less even before this happened.
I know now to be more of an open book with friends (if I'm ever able to make any). Setting out boundaries, parameters, expectations etc from the off and creating a safe environment for both of us. I used to find friendships stressful because I'd have this small network of people I consider friends and then I'd still be talking to 30 other people on social media. My energy is spread really thinly, it becomes overwhelming and too much for me. I'd want a much smaller, tighter group.
I put pressure on myself to hold friendships together and I was never 100% honest with people as to how I felt about that. Part of creating a safe environment is so both of us can speak to each other without the fear of upsetting the other person, especially if one of us is unhappy with something.
There's other things about the nature of conversations I have. I just need to be careful about what I say in private with anyone.
I know I need to win back trust, but it'll take time. I also need to trust other people too, because I don't want to feel like every little thing I do and say is going to be blasted online.
So what am I doing now?
There's still an overwhelming fear of being doxxed, so I changed my phone number. I'm taking it on the chin - I've had my punishment and I'm facing the consequences so I could probably punish myself a bit less.
It has been difficult to see a future. I wanted to channel my experience into something positive, like a guide for Autistic adults. Maybe something like "online etiquette for autistic adults" and "understanding boundaries for autistic men". I don't want this kind of situation to happen to anyone again so I'd want to be part of the solution.
HMO We at first went to our head of year to see if someone could have a word with him about boundaries and I spoke to someone else and they responded with "but he hasn't actually done anything yet" which was very upsetting as obviously we were trying to prevent my friend from being physically hurt rather than dealing with the consequences of it (in my mind, when someone being actually hurt is a potential outcome, you should act on it).
Peter I understand that I haven't given enough context here, and part of that is because I didn't want to write a huge tome-length comment (and also it's more my friend's story than mine). But this all came from the fact that they did used to be friends but then he made emotionally blackmailing comments to her heavily suggesting that he would kill himself if she stopped being friends with him and as she has anxiety this caused her to be found in her kitchen one night by her flatmate having a full on panic attack. The flatmate convinced her to break things off with him and helped her to write a kind but firm message explaining things to him and they even sent it to my friend's twin's boyfriend (who is also autistic) to check with him whether it was as appropriate as could be.
So they stopped being friends and he took huge issue when I started to be friends with her and he pulled my aside one day to tell me to stop being her friend. Through this conversation I found out that he wanted to fix things with her, but I knew that that was not what she wanted and I tried to explain very firmly (but kindly) that while it was nice he wanted to fix things, you can't make someone want to be your friend and that those people are just not "his people"./ He thanked me and said he understood and that he felt better than he had in weeks.
However, a couple of days later he texts my friend to say he wants to talk to her and I encouraged her to text him back and say "I'm sorry but I do not want to have a conversation with you" and that was when he started physically threatening her. He threatened her, told a mutual friend he was going to hurt her (he didn't realise she was also her friend) and then told a lecturer the same thing.
That's when it got too far. That's when we stopped trying to sympathise with him.
Peter, I accept that you were playing Devil's Advocate with boopBrownie, but if the guy's behaviour was his idea of setting boundaries, then I think there is a major problem if he thinks physically threatening people is an effective way of doing that.
I can’t honestly say much about your specific situation. These situations are context dependent and often turn on details and minutia.
however what if his behaviour is him setting boundaries. Let me put on my devils advocate hat.
how would you feel if your best friend started screening your calls? Not just for a day or two but weeks. Not answering messages. Making worry if you had offended them or if something terrible had happened to them. Wouldn’t you feel justified setting boundaries with a friend about going radio silent for that long?
now suppose your best friend didn’t think of you as a friend at all. To them you were merely acquaintances.
it’s not that rare. If you are autistic and very socially isolated the person you think of as your best friend may barely know you exist.
so have you and your friend told this guy very bluntly ‘we are not friends, do not treat me with familiarity because to me you are just an acquaintance.’
mayBe that will make you look like a jerk but if you go making complaints about him before making that clear with bluntness and directness I think you really are the jerk.
That sounds frustrating. Do you think he's faced the kind of repercussions that would help him see the error of his ways?
Frustratingly it took a huge scale error for me to see it, one that basically changed my life. I regret not taking it seriously earlier.
I really do think that something like "understanding boundaries for autistic men" would be really useful. For me, there's a guy at university who is autistic and constantly crosses boundaries. We were forgiving and tried to explain what he was doing wrong to him and give him the benefit of the doubt etc but then it turned into something a lot more dark. To not go into a lot of detail, he believed that he was owed attention by people in his life and decided to physically threaten my friend and make her feel unsafe when she refused. That was when all sympathy for him went out of the window.
From what we can tell, he doesn't understand boundaries for any kind of relationship in his life. Friends, lecturers, etc...
Peter said:It's very hard to say things about 'a' stranger but actually it's very easy to say things about lots of strangers. I don't know how tall a given woman is. But the average woman is 4'5 and the larger the group we are talking about the 'truer' the statement 'woman are 4'5' becomes. So yes I'm generalising about oversensitive people ... but there are quite a lot of them which makes that quite plausible.
Plausible but not a certifiable fact, which is the issue I'd be happy to discuss with you in DMs like I said, but you don't seem to want to take me up on that and would rather keep making this about us and our disagreement and not refocus on the OP's issue which I find very disrespectful to do to HMO's thread. So goodnight Peter.
Peter said:You realise its quite normal to talk to your friends about the people you are attracted to? It would be perfectly normal for me to say to a friend, 'Oh I really like such and such a girl when she hugs me I feel like I'm in heaven.' People frequently go to their friends for relationship advice. I suppose what some friends are comfortable with which others aren't is discussing those relationships in more sexual terms. I mean some close friends do talk about their sex lives, ask each other advice about it etc. It's not wrong to desire that kind of openness with a close friend. So you misjudged how close you were to your friend and how open they were to discussing certain things. That's not a character flaw, that's autism. You really need to stop beating yourself up over this.
You realise its quite normal to talk to your friends about the people you are attracted to? It would be perfectly normal for me to say to a friend, 'Oh I really like such and such a girl when she hugs me I feel like I'm in heaven.' People frequently go to their friends for relationship advice. I suppose what some friends are comfortable with which others aren't is discussing those relationships in more sexual terms.
I mean some close friends do talk about their sex lives, ask each other advice about it etc. It's not wrong to desire that kind of openness with a close friend. So you misjudged how close you were to your friend and how open they were to discussing certain things. That's not a character flaw, that's autism. You really need to stop beating yourself up over this.
Talking to my other female friends about how there's a girl I like is one thing. I did that but it never turned sexual.
The problem was I spoke to someone (who I wasn't on friendly terms with) about how I got excited while hugging a friend. The word excited in this context is exactly what you may be thinking I mean. I wouldn't say I am attracted to that friend but when I did meet her, I hugged her a lot and it went overboard (but never more than just hugs). She shouldn't have had to tell me to stop; I knew that it was too much at the time and I did apologise later. When we met the second time it was not as much.
But obviously, those messages were blasted out on Twitter and she and every one of my friends saw it. I'm not surprised that the resulting situation is that I no longer have friends.
That is, of course, the main lesson. I did have some conversations with some people about sex just as a general advice type thing but then in some cases it went beyond that, and they basically felt like they were being used.
The big thing which probably made people particularly uncomfortable was the fact I would occasionally joke about a friend converting to Islam so we could get married and be intimate in the way that was appropriate for me etc. I have accepted that it wasn't right and just an area I should have completely stayed away from. Things were just completely out of control. This is probably the one that made people decide that I am, in their eyes, a "groomer".
It doesn't matter how much I emphasise that I didn't go out of my way to hurt anyone, I just put my foot in it. It's my friends who have been deeply hurt by it all and I don't expect them to warm back to me ever. They can't be expected to be like "oh he's autistic, he doesn't know what he's doing" cos I am an adult at the end of the day.
Peter said:If you don't mind me saying so that's dangerous. You are at risk of finding yourself repeatedly pushed out every time a hand full of people decide they don't like you and stir up trouble if you are not willing to fight for the places you call home. Yes twitter is particularly bad for this, but you get the same thing in real life spaces too. Some day if you want to keep a social circle long term, you'll have to draw a line in the sand and fight.
It is something I'm working on with my therapist. I know right now things will just inflame even more if I as much as showed my face. Six months down the line? It may be different but I just can't see how me defending myself here was even an option. No one was having it, it was all excuses to them. "you're only sorry cos you've been caught" - they'd rather I wasn't sorry I guess. If I tried to defend myself it'll just turn into a screaming match and my actions being emphasised tenfold so it's pointless.
HMO said:I don't want to dismiss the whole thing as 'banter' but I know there were a few things that went way too far, such as me talking to someone about a friend and how I got excited when I hugged them. I know that was wrong now though, and that was something I should have tackled at the time.
HMO said:I'm not the kind of person that can actually stand up strong in the face of all that either, I've never liked confrontation or conflict (even though I know I needed to face this).
If you don't mind me saying so that's dangerous. You are at risk of finding yourself repeatedly pushed out every time a hand full of people decide they don't like you and stir up trouble if you are not willing to fight for the places you call home. Yes twitter is particularly bad for this, but you get the same thing in real life spaces too. Some day if you want to keep a social circle long term, you'll have to draw a line in the sand and fight.
π Bees π (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:But more importantly I don't think you can know a stranger well enough to be able to say they are "living in an echo chamber"
It's very hard to say things about 'a' stranger but actually it's very easy to say things about lots of strangers. I don't know how tall a given woman is. But the average woman is 4'5 and the larger the group we are talking about the 'truer' the statement 'woman are 4'5' becomes. So yes I'm generalising about oversensitive people ... but there are quite a lot of them which makes that quite plausible.
You see a person who finds an idea so disturbing that they can't even bring themselves to talk about it is not only unwilling to accept that idea they are unable to no matter how true it is. Their brain spits it out like un-chewed food before the digestive juices of their logic and reason ever really gets to have a go on it. You could argue all debate is force feeding others ideas they don't want until one sticks.
Peter said:unable to engage with views different than their own
I think you confused unable with unwilling, it is possible to entertain a thought without accepting it, and in the market place of ideas not everything being sold is of equal value. But more importantly I don't think you can know a stranger well enough to be able to say they are "living in an echo chamber", you aren't qualified to say that based on anything beyond your own feelings, which is why I don't think it has place in a conversation seeking more factual advice.
I also don't think us sidetracking like this is of any use to the OP tbh so this will be the last I'll say on it here.My DMs are open if you want to talk about it there (though I won't be able to respond for a while as I'm getting ready and going out soon).
Whether it's a popular view or not I do believe more offence would do society good. My views are largely similar to Rowan Atkinson's expressed here. There are people, highly over sensitive people, who could probably do with being offended a lot more often. Because not only has living in an echo chamber made them unable to engage with views different than their own it's caused them to try and ostracise and excommunicate any of their peers who do thus stifling discourse and debate.
Harassment law on the other hand is a different thing. UK Law defines harassment in this completely barmy circular way. It's harassment if a 'reasonable person' would think it harassment. How many reasonable people have you ever met? Thankfully even there there are a couple of defences on top of that. Among them are that if a reasonable person had as little information as the defendant they wouldn't have thought it harassment and that "that in the particular circumstances the pursuit of the course of conduct was reasonable." Both of those defences could potentially cover missundersantings that could be constrewed as harassment. The clasic example might be the dirty Hungarian phrasebook
Yeah sometimes if you over edit a post or make more than 3 uses of the quote feature in a single reply the spam filter just catches it arbitrarily.Anyway I gtg for the evening not having the option to make this forum white text on black hurts my eyes after a while.
The reply I wrote appeared to be removed for spam (for some reason) but yes, I echo what you've said here.
Twitter worked out well for a while in terms of creating bonds but I naively didn't think it'd end like this.
I intend to lay low for a few months until I've been able to make some changes in my life. It would be nice to be on speaking terms with at least one person I knew but I don't expect that.
I'd say it's not an ongoing issue, no. I fear that it'll kick off again because, at the end of the day, it's on there forever. If you searched my name on Twitter, you'd basically find all of it instantly. (I'm assuming, I haven't done it).
When it first happened, lots of mutuals unfollowed and blocked, understandably. It was still difficult to see. Even though I understand why friends blocked me instantly after seeing what they saw, it really hurt. The person who shared the screenshots of private messages then dug up Reddit posts I had done (which I've since removed).
Twitter worked well in terms of meeting new people and developing a connection - for a while. For the best part of 2 years I felt that I had created bonds that were better than anything I'd managed before. Unfortunately, I was talking to far too many people at one point and then my energy gets spread really thinly.
By and large, I didn't really have anyone that I personally wasn't comfortable with until about 6 months ago when the person who shared the screenshots initially wanted to be friends - I didn't feel comfortable because I just didn't feel they were someone I would ordinarily interact with. Upon me saying that (cos I felt it was best to be honest), they felt hurt, like they weren't good enough, so I caved in. A few months in I really wanted to say "this isn't working for me" but I was afraid of hurting them, and I feared them sharing screenshots etc (cos they'd done it for others before) so I left it.
I accidentally said something to offend them about a month ago and they blocked me. A few days later it all broke out. It's really uncomfortable when I think about it because I know it's my own doing, but all I can do is not repeat it.
I don't intend to use Twitter in the same way again; publicly (I had 3.7k followers) and sharing a lot about my personal life. The autistic community won't welcome me back but really I was not enjoying it even before this happened. Too many arguments and negativity.
I'd love to be on speaking terms with at least one of my friends again but I know the hope will kill me, so I don't expect that to happen for at least 6 months (minimum).
TBH you really don't have to, and if it isn't an ongoing issue then I'd rather not, I find things like harrassment triggering (even if it's not what you intended to commit, the talk about it from other people is gonna be a whole bad vibe of folks reliving trauma and I don't need to relive my own). I can already imagine why that would be really upsetting to have your autism attacked like that. it's not for people to gatekeep your identity or presume to be able to remove a diagnosis from you just because they do not like something you did, no matter how bad. Twitter and YouTube is very like that when a dog pile starts, the people who weren't party to what went on when it actually happened and and have decided to make a snap impression of you based on second hand information do not really know you as a person even if the event or parts of it itself was relayed accurately. Also the way Twitter and Youtube work and the toxic atmosphere they promote it's really not a good site for meeting people anyway. My advice is just stay away from mainstream social media for a good long while, work on yourself so this situation never repeats and when you are ready to reach out more seriously with people again later down the line you can do under different usernames. Learn from it and then start again fresh. Because if you aren't in the habit of doing this stuff and the other person is another adult, then you don't deserved to be forever branded and denied a second chance.
I can definitely say, hand on heart, that I didn't wake up one morning and decide I was going to go out of my way to hurt anyone. Doesn't change the fact that it's what happened but it's true.
I might have to share with you my Twitter handle privately so you can see for yourself at some point (if that's okay) but as things stand, it has been a month and there haven't been any legal issues.
Autism is context perhaps but no excuse. The other people involved (including the person who shared it initially) are also autistic.
I think even despite the fact the 'online storm' has more or less died down completely, I still fear that it'll kick up again at some point. I haven't heard from a friend in over a month and I haven't seen anything for a few weeks at least; one of them did a YouTube video but they didn't name me explicitly and they do have the right to talk about it; I didn't watch the whole thing, just scrolled through the transcript, but it's difficult seeing people in the comments calling me a narcissist and suggesting that I'm not even autistic.
Well I can believe it was probably unintentional (obvs you haven't shared the full story with me, but I can relate to accidentally putting my foot in it in other kinds of social situations at least) but the key is unintentional, if that scenario ever should happen that you get in legal trouble the worst thing you can do is double down. When it comes to criminal offences intent to not do a thing is not as important as the result of accidentally doing a thing anyway, so the best recourse is remorse. You don't use Autism as an excuse to minimise what happened (because the other person's feelings still matter), you would just state it as a reason to help explain why it happened. It's about the victim not the perpetrator, even if the perpetrator didn't mean to be so or is also a victim in a secondary sense.If the person in question didn't chase it up with the police though I suspect you won't have to though worry about it though.It's also much bigger of you that you can acknowledge your own part in what happened though, like I said even if you didn't mean to.
π Bees π (they/them) Autism resources in bio #stoptheshock #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs said:Other glaring issues aside it's just not good legal advice if charges are ever pressed based on the unintentional innapropriate behaviour, which seems to be HMO25's implied worst case scenario fear of the things that happened. (I'm not always able to read behind the lines, but this context seemed pretty clear.)
When the situation first broke out I did genuinely wonder if I should turn myself in to the police. I never did but the weight of it all felt extremely strong, even though no one around me thought it was a good idea.
Even if it wasn't unintentional (which was the case), I don't know how I'd prove that anyway. Not that I'd want to spend the rest of my life proving myself to others without proving to myself first that I've learnt from it.
Peter said:I've known friends that do flirt and talk about sexual things. That said I imagine possibly at the time you thought maybe some of these women wanted to be more than friends? How are you supposed to transition from friendship to romance (or friends with benefits) if the conversation doesn't turn to sex at some point? I don't wish to be presumptuous by suggesting that's what you were aiming for but I want to emphasise thats a totally ok thing for an autistic person to want and try to do. To turn a friendship into something more. Again I don't see anyway for autistic people to try to do that that doesn't expose them to a greater risk of misunderstanding than their non autistic peers. Accepting that misunderstandings will happen is just part of inclusion.
I only really seriously felt that way about one person and I just didn't have those conversations with her. With pretty much everyone I was having those conversations with, it was intended to be playful. Sometimes it was a back-and-forth, other times I did take things too far and acknowledged it at the time. I think it's because I felt there was some kind of rebellious nature to it; like a pseudo feeling of what it's like to be an actual relationship, but truly I didn't know what I wanted to get out of it.
I don't want to dismiss the whole thing as 'banter' but I know there were a few things that went way too far, such as me talking to someone about a friend and how I got excited when I hugged them. I know that was wrong now though, and that was something I should have tackled at the time.
Peter said:But how could you have created that environment if you didn't know it was an issue? Again you describe a situation where they could have prevented this, by choosing to have an uncomfortable conversation, but you couldn't because you didn't know there was an issue. In the end the only way to 'come back' from something like this is to keep a high profile. It goes against most people's 'logic' because you tend to think 'keep a low profile' but if you keep a low profile the only version of you people will hear about is the twisted caricature your haters spread. What you need to do is address the issue, draw a line under it and move on and unashamedly put your best self out their so people can see you are not the 2D villein your detractors paint you as.
But how could you have created that environment if you didn't know it was an issue? Again you describe a situation where they could have prevented this, by choosing to have an uncomfortable conversation, but you couldn't because you didn't know there was an issue.
In the end the only way to 'come back' from something like this is to keep a high profile. It goes against most people's 'logic' because you tend to think 'keep a low profile' but if you keep a low profile the only version of you people will hear about is the twisted caricature your haters spread. What you need to do is address the issue, draw a line under it and move on and unashamedly put your best self out their so people can see you are not the 2D villein your detractors paint you as.
I know that it's always going to come down to "you should have known better" because the damage has been done and I have no friends anymore. It is uncomfortable knowing that there's lots that I did which friends were uncomfortable with but didn't feel like they could tell me at the time.
I don't even necessarily want to go back to what my life was cos there was lots wrong with it, but I want the opportunity to move forwards. Having said that, I can't see keeping a high profile being anything but a disaster. It has only been a month and considering I've been called a nonce, a groomer, a sex pest, an abuser etc, there's absolutely no way I can risk it. I'm not the kind of person that can actually stand up strong in the face of all that either, I've never liked confrontation or conflict (even though I know I needed to face this).
I did address it last month. People weren't having it because of how I handled the situation as it happened. I was in a state of panic and I was asking people to report the screenshots. It's no surprise people thought it was insincere, and I just thought the best thing to do was to fully disappear.
Peter said:You know I think communicating with people is a bit like driving a car and these 'incidents of offence' are a bit like car crashes. The difference is no one ever died from being offended. In fact being offended isn't harmful to a person at all, in fact some people might even say being offended can be good for a person in that it forces them to think about things they usually don't. Now beyond offensive behaviour there is harassing behaviour which can give people cause for alarm (and I say cause because not everyone who is alarmed has cause to be) but it doesn't sound like that was the situation here?
I was with you (sort of) right up until this point tbh, I don't think that specific opinion will be of any help should something big enough happen that a defence needs to stand up in court, even if the offence was accidental "being offended is good for you" would go down like a lead balloon in a harrassment hearing, and for good reason.Other glaring issues aside it's just not good legal advice if charges are ever pressed based on the unintentional innapropriate behaviour, which seems to be HMO25's implied worst case scenario fear of the things that happened. (I'm not always able to read behind the lines, but this context seemed pretty clear.)