Positive people with Autism

rr84 said:

sorry for not being clear

sorry for not being clear

I've revisited this thread a couple of times not knowing how to go forward. It relates to a concern I have about the value of diversity.

To survive the human race needs to breakthrough successive barriers and stay ahead of natural adaptations. Innovation comes from particularly perceptive thinkers, or from people with high focus able to make many measurements in pursuit of a new explanation or line of argument.

This is something I regularly pursue with students in respect of valuing diversity and valuing different skills. The standard neurotypical approach may not be sufficient for survival. What I think has happened is that, even with much progress on equal opportunities, we are inclined to allow more different thinkers to have alternative lifestyles.

Einstein (whether Aspergers ADHD or whatever) had he been in the current young generation, he would probably have had some segregation, loads of intervention, and spent more time while well intentioned people tried to resolve his dress sense, untidiness and social odduities. He probably wouldn't get the chance to make scientific breakthroughs.

So I'm apprehensive about the idea people with ASDs don't have to engage in the rat race.

I read something in my teens which has never left me, though I have re-read - Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End".  The unusual thinkers have a purpose.

In some ways not being diagnosed when younger, and somehow surviving an awful lot of bad times, I have ended up in the rat race, both as an R&D scientist in the avionics industry, and latterly as a university lecturer. I may have underachieved promotion wise because I couldn't fit in, and because there were these odd gaps between what I could do, and a tendancy to get horrendously overfocussed and buried in odd lines of pursuit, or pointless anxieties.

However I'm also glad I didn't opt out. If that sounds strange, or un-aspergers, or just doesn't fit anyone else's ideas, I would be interested to read further comments.

Yes, Longman,  I think you're identifying a very retrograde general trend in Society here where people now feel they've got to conform and follow like sheep.   I would maintain this trend doesn't only apply to how autistics are looked upon,  it comes into play when anybody steps out of line.    Academic prowess which used to be a measure of people's ability to think and understand and have original new ideas,  is now measured more in terms of their ability to regurgitate syllabus notes.    Also "common sense" is being replaced by having to follow the rulebook.   Oh yes, and then there's fashion and pop-star culture.   Ughh!    ... Or ought I to be saying Baaa.. baaa..baaa?  

But to put a more positive note on it,  we Aspies are lucky because we already know we're different and we don't have to conform.   We never did get in the rat race,  and why would we want to?   We can be content in believing that our original thought and innovation and our so-called "eccentric" ways are actually the right ones, and it's all the others who are wrong!!    It's just a pity that the navigators of this world boat we're all forced to sail in together either can't see the disasters of unsustainability lying ahead, or the force of pressure from all the sheep doesn't allow them any room to manoevre.  

We are often told that 'no-one is perfect'. But we expect physical issues or mistakes which are one-offs.

For years I have tried to fit in and never managed, to be told that the reason I don't fit in is a great relief.  Although I will try and learn more about the things I struggle with, I think it will be so much easier to be able to say "I can't do that" and have a recognised reason.  No-one would be upset if someone (for example) didn't have much interest in TV or films if they were blind.

So I have a 'condition', to understand the condition we need to educate people.  My condition I can now understand as a simple bottleneck, something that causes me to have slow understanding of communication, it takes me longer than others to understand what is being told to me and longer to respond, think of the comment 'garbage in, garbage out!'  I also have a 'gift', once there is an understanding of the condition we can see the gift.  I am a 'fixer', I can look at an IT system which is flawed and work down to the problem no matter how many others have looked and failed.  I suspect that this will work in others area as well, but the bottleneck usually gets in the way.

My thanks to Hope for mentioning the loss of the ivory tower. The trouble is this dream is still being sold to young people with able aspergers who have gone to university. I worry that the dream will prove a disappointment to many who try, even though, for people with aspergers to achieve great things, first and post-graduate degrees are the gateway. After disasterous school years and lots of short term jobs I went back to education in my twenties; managed to get a PhD. But by that time Mrs T's war on the universities had drastically cut the posts so I spent the next twelve years in industry. I only got into academia again during the last recession. There is no ivory tower now. "Collegiate" expectations are as bad as school. Anyone not fitting in is seen as undermining the collegiate environment, and in some universities bullying and undermining "odd" staff is widespread.  Part of this is a fear that "different" staff will not pull their weight. Education is much more team work based now. After nearly 20 years teaching I've survived to retire, but it has been tough, not because of the teaching, which has been fantastic, but because of this absurd need to "fit in" with NT expectations, which should be irrelevant.  I think there is a danger that some potential geniuses nowadays may not make it because of modern attitudes to academic expectations. I hope I'm wrong. But it may take effort via the Autism Act to get improvements in the opportunities for people with aspergers to excel.

Many great scientists and phiosophers allegedly had autism: Einstein, Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein... It is hard to say for sure as they are not with us any more, so it is all conjecture. However, I think it is fair to say that many great intellectuals were somewhere on the spectrum. It was probably easier for eccentric people to make it in academia in the past, when social skills were not in such high demand in the employment market. In the past, academics could escape to their Ivory Tower and write long theses and live a very secluded life. Nowadays, academics are expected to be more social. It is a shame!

Yes,  more research is always welcome,  and I wouldn't limit that to 3rd party professional "expert"  researchers doing the work.   Some of it is personal and we can do that on ourselves and by ourselves.   If we share our observations and results on here like Longman has done with his stress from sensory overload example,  that's a good positive thing to do and there's a good chance other members on here will gain encouragement from it.

But I can also see another side to this.  Other Aspies have said how pleased they are to have got their diagnosis and to have finally come to know  themselves and what they are because at last they can stop banging their head against a brick wall trying to emulate NTs and they can simply be content with being themselves.

So accepting that there are certain areas where our wiring is fixed and different to NTs can be a positive in itself.      Anyone got an example of how they know they're different,  and they're proud  happy and content to be different that way?

I think there are a lot of things we can change, but general advice is difficult as people's experiences and difficulties are very different.

I feel that researchers ought to be looking into this, by finding out more about why some people are better able to develop coping strategies or compensations depending on their level of autism/aspergers and the impact of comorbid conditions.

I get the impression researching to improve lifestyles has much lower priority than treatments, causes and other higher sciences - I am not saying these shouldn't have priority, but improving lifestyles ought to be a worthy cause for researchers, and receive more time and money.

Anxiety, confidence and personal organisation seem to be things that can be worked on to enhance our lives. I wonder whether social interaction is improved by keeping up exposure to it and getting beneficial experience rather than avoiding it, but I think I'd need some expert guidance on whether that is practical for those who find this very difficult to do at all.

I'm lucky that sensory overload isn't a big issue, just a manageable nuisance. Since getting a diagnosis I have been experimenting with what stresses me, and whether I can reduce the effect. I will sit in a noisy or visually complex environment and try to read the different signs. I have found that changing my orientation relative to some uncomfortable environments helps, but I seem overly sensitive when noise and movement is on my visual periphery than facing it, so that makes sense. What would happen to someone severely affected by sensory overload, if they tried to analyse their exposure, is a question the experts need to research/advise on.

There ought to be more research on what makes everyday living easier and helps people cope. Hope this helps. Let's have reactions from people for whom the symptoms are too severe to experiment.

This is a great thread and we should always try to look on the positive side, maybe at times even at the expense of being totally honest with ourselves.

I'm an Aspie, and like the above posters I have a positive attitude about myself and my Aspieness,   but I wonder how much our attitude can actually affect and change our lives.   I'm told that I'm wired differently to NTs and that's something that can't be changed.   So what exactly are the sorts of things that we can change by our attitude, and what exactly can't be changed because they're wired in?     Anyone got any useful thoughts on this conundrum?

From my personal experience Kestler's 7th and 8th don't seem to work for me, and I wonder if I'm alone in that.  I don't feel logical, and I know so many people raise the Star Trek Spock/Data analogy here, but I cannot find any real logic.  I'm worried whether my sense of truth is really valid.

I have found a capacity to research and develop case evidence helps me to lobby and petition for change, and I will persevere to get people to think or re-examine assumptions. However I have to watch out all the time that I don't go too far. I can be too obsessive, focussed and pedantic and destroy my case and my credibility very easily. So I can do a lot of good, but without ever so much care, probably a lot of harm.

I suspect I can think out of the box, probably Kester's 2 and 3, which has given me huge advantages. It has enabled me to have an interesting if not very remunerative career.

However the great barrier for doing all these things is social interaction, especially away from the formal. I've had too many years of "not fitting in" and being excluded, and that I think undermines asperger potential most. It is great being an original thinker, but not much good if you cannot convince your audience because of social acceptability. While I can sway an auduience as a speaker, I crash over tea and biscuits afterwards.

I agree with Kestlers fifth - memory and attention to detail - that does have huge compensations.

It would be nice to know how people differ or compare in these perceived advantages because I thnk that gets to the root of everything.

I agree, have posted my 8 positives of AS.

Potted history: 12 years army, 3 businesses, a co-operative and a charitable company; director of a housing association.

Now do voluntary work, consultant on local planning and access, research, history.

Am an author, performance poet, artist, model maker, gardener.

The Eight Asperger’s Syndrome Advantages

THESE TRAITS ARE USED BY ME TO DEVELOP INVALUABLE LEADERSHIP AND ENTREPRENEURIAL SKILLS.

      1. FOCUS

The ability to focus on one objective over long periods of time without becoming distracted allows me to accomplish large and challenging tasks.

      2. UNIQUE GLOBAL INSIGHTS

The ability to find novel connections among multi-disciplinary facts and ideas allows me to create new, coherent, and meaningful insight that others would not have reached without me.

      3. INDEPENDENT THINKING

My willingness to consider unpopular or unusual possibilities generates new options and opportunities and can pave the way for others.

      4. INTERNAL MOTIVATION

Rather than being swayed by social convention, other's opinions, social pressure or fears, I can hold firm to my own purpose. My unique ideas can thrive, despite opposing viewpoints.

      5. ATTENTION TO DETAIL

The ability to remember and process minute details without getting lost or overwhelmed gives me a distinct advantage when solving complex problems.

      6. 3-DIMENSIONAL THINKING (and multi-dimensions)

The ability to utilize 3-dimensional visioning gives me a unique perspective when designing and creating solutions.

      7. CUTTING THROUGH THE SMOKE SCREEN

The ability to recognize and speak the truth that is being "conveniently" ignored by others can be vital to the success of a project, activity or endeavour.

8. LOGICAL DECISION MAKING

The ability to make logical and rational decisions and stick to my course of action without being swayed by impulse or emotional reactions allows me to navigate successfully through difficult situations without being pulled off-course.

HoxtonPaul said:

Seems to me that in our society, it is all about how you relate yourself and how well you can function to survive, prosper and get by.  Where is the money?  That is the truth.  Me?  I got a job in the Nas...

Many years ago, at the fall of the Berlin Wall, I said to my wife that those people who see this as some kind of victory of capitalism over communism are deluding themselves. I said that a world based on ever spiralling greed was not sustainable either and I really think that the Western world is starting to get this message.

Maybe folk who have amn alternative world view and motoivations beyong the simple £ will find more value in the coming years?

HEAR!  Not here.  For all you pedantics out there. 

Attention to detail is everything.

Glad to here one of us is here!  My Wife and I both caught Autism off our Fathers.  I've worked for the nas for 5 years now, thankfully.  The one job I've had that was permanent that has lasted that long.  Second permanent one too.  The first lasted 3 years and was a hoot, selling theatre tickets and getting infinte comps' to the West End.  Otherwise it was all temporary assignments, so as not to get bored. 

There is a race of high-functioners out there who do not exhibit the characteristics of being Autistic.  Jobs, families, their own homes, they got the lot.  Yet actually their savant skill is simply looking ordinary.  They may be your best friend or the worst enemy you could have.  Either way, they will be one thing or the other.

The definition of what is Autism will be challenged in the near future as more and more of us come out of the Neurotypical closet.  Neurodiversity is part of the world and always has been.  A bit here, an eccentric there.  Go to silicon valley or a science-fiction convention and have a look!

When the effect coalesces, you get obvious Autism.  Parents who believe in mercury, vaccines and Wakefield just don't understand.  They only know about their children and those of others.  They are Neurotypical facists who only want competitive, functional people in the world.  All else is inferior and to be eliminated.  Eugenicists who believe they support and cherish the disabled.  (It is okay being in a wheelchair provided you can be smart and clever, eh?)

Seems to me that in our society, it is all about how you relate yourself and how well you can function to survive, prosper and get by.  Where is the money?  That is the truth.  How much have you made and how do you spend it?  How well do you look after yourself and others?  All you got to do is keep the act up and you can go home and privately stim and collect obsessively to your hearts content.  Or go into the arts, and externalize your true Autistic nature as such.

Me?  I got a job in the Nas...

I absolutely agree. I believe a high number of engineers, IT specialists, mathematicians, astronomers, physicists etc are somewhere on the spectrum and the world would be a much poorer place without them.

It's also a breath of fresh air to get a dose of straight talking from someone on the spectrum, rather than the woolly, polite and sometimes hypocritical nonsense that some people talk.

I think parents/relatives (and I do include myself here) should remember the positive aspects, because we can get so caught up in the woes of dealing with an autistic family member that we forget to appreciate the good points. Like you, MM, I don't want to be a Pollyanna, or minimise the difficulties that many people face, but there is definitely more than one reason to value ASD.

I agree people with autism and Aspergers have a great deal to offer society.

I have learned so much from my son - patience, understanding and thinking outside the box.

I do not believe there is such a thing as 'normal', we are all different.

If more people thought like autistic people did then I am sure the world would be a much better place.

Well done on everything you have achieved.