Lying "professionals" and assessment woes.

First of all, I'm angry, sweary and suicidal. If harsh language is going to bother you, then sod off. If you're made of tougher stuff, then any opinions will be gratefully received.

I'm female and in my 40's. I have lived with depression for most of my life, and have given up trying to find a treatment that I can tolerate. I have diagnosed ADHD. I have always suspected that I am missing at least one additional diagnosis. I honestly have no idea if I am autistic or not. In some ways, it makes so much sense I cannot see how I am not autistic. In other ways, who the Hell knows? I read Aspergirls, and most of it felt so familiar that it was as though someone had written a user manual for how to deal with me. (There were one or two things that didn't ring true as well, to be fair).  I first mentioned my suspicions to a psychiatrist I was seeing - this was about six years ago. She was really dismissive. I didn't mention it again. About a year later, I saw a psychopharmacologist. I asked him if he thought there was any chance I was autistic. He didn't even answer me. 

Fast forward a few years, and certain aspects of my behaviour were really causing issues. I asked him again, and he sent me an autism "questionnaire". It was only about ten questions, but I managed to query the validity of many of the questions. (I don't have the form in front of me, but one of them was something about identifying with characters when you're reading. I don't read fiction, so I didn't really know how to answer it). 

He then sent me a different, more detailed (Excel-based) questionnaire. Again, I do not have it in front of me. I think it was designed by a Cambridge-based research group, and was (IIRC) 50 general questions, and then 50 questions that were more based around "emotional intelligence". Off hand, I don't recall my score for the first section, but it was well in to "you may be autistic" territory. On the emotional intelligence section, I remember that I scored 11/50 :-( (In my defence, in the first section, you could use half numbers if you were not sure about something. For some reason, the second part only allowed you to use full integers. Before being forced off the fence, my score would have been 15/50. I'm aware that 30 % still constitutes a fail.)

(I should point out that the thing that scared me the most about this, wasn't that I scored 11/50 in the "emotional intelligence" section. It was that, despite this,  I still seem to have more empathy than many people who are employed within the NHS).

The psychopharmacologist wrote a letter to my GP, suggesting that I be assessed for autism. 

On the upside, I didn't have to wait too long to be seen. The bloke who was performing the assessment seemed nice. Possibly a little too nice. Not in a creepy or inappropriate way I should add. Just very sympathetic, and a part of me doesn't know what to do with that. I generally think I'm used to people hating me, but he was fairly good-looking and seemed kind. I know how lame and stupid this sounds, but I wanted him to like me. It made it more difficult to tell him things that would:

- possibly support an ASD diagnosis, but also

- make me look like a twat.

We had two diagnostic sessions, one in August, and one in September. I was supposed to see him in October, but I couldn't find anywhere to park at the centre where the assessment was being conducted. I finished up getting really stressed out and having a complete meltdown. The third appointment was re-arranged, but the psychologist had to cancel. Despite me telling them not to bother, they re-arranged another appointment for January. At the beginning of this session, the psychologist told me that he didn't believe that I was autistic, but he felt that it was important to have the third session, so that I didn't take the outcome "as a rejection". I was taken aback, and told him there were things that I was finding it difficult to tell him. He didn't make any effort to allow me to share these things, and it was clear that he had completely made up his mind. He said that he felt that my issues could be explained by trauma (something he didn't bother to put on the subsequent letter to my GP).

I have since pointed out that I felt that the unnecessary third appointment was unhelpful; he could have told me the outcome on the phone. In October. Since the diagnostic process had begun, I had moved to a different district. I had been under the impression that if I registered with a local GP, I would have to start the diagnostic procedure from scratch in my new location. They are now claiming that is not the case. But

- I don't think the psychologist realises the damage that he has caused by lying. The third appointment was not diagnostic. That he has lied about this has really re-enforced my opinion that healthcare workers cannot be trusted. I cannot understand why he will not tell the truth about this, regardless of the effect that this has had on his patient. 

- this left several months were I could not get the support that I needed.

- At the unnecessary third appointment, I was suicidal. The psychologist made one half-arsed attempt to enquire about my safety. That was it. 

- It also meant that I had to drive over an hour from where I was living, when I was in such a state that I probably shouldn't have actually been on the road. 

Questions. If you can answer any of these, it would be appreciated. Also, if you think that I'm asking the wrong questions, I am open to a discussion about it.

1) I'm female, in my 40's, and I hold a PhD. Is using a childrens' book to diagnose me considered appropriate? The psychologist asked me if I could find a narrative in this shitty, text-free, creepy AF book about flying frogs:

https://www.amazon.com/Tuesday-David-Wiesner/dp/0395870828

I could. Therefore, I cannot be autistic.

2) I can string a sentence together. Apparently my social skills are too good for me to be autistic. I queried this, and was told that they are confident that they can identify "masking" in female patients. I seriously doubt that this is the case. However, they also didn't offer up any evidence of exactly how they feel they could do this. Does anyone else have any experience of this?

3) The psychologist seemed unable to distinguish between contradictory features of ADHD and ASD. Is this a common issue? Can you have ASD and ADHD? (The kind of things I mean, is that I do like to learn new things. I made the point to him that I can enjoy exploring new places - I gave the example of Glastonbury Festival. It helps that I can walk around all day with a bottle of vodka in my hand, and I need to "retire" to my tent two or three times during the day to "decompress", and get away from the hoards of people).

4) I asked whether there was an inherent gender bias in their diagnostic approach (one psychologist, not a multidisciplinary team). They gave me several non-answers. Do you know if a single-psychologist approach is less likely to diagnose women with autism.

5) If my GP - who has got to know me better than he would probably like - had misgivings about the non-diagnosis, would he have offered to send me for a second opinion? Or would that be unprofessional of him (i.e. for him to suggest it)?

6) I have been lied to, and lied about by other healthcare "professionals". I cannot now imagine doing the whole sitting-down-and-getting-to-know-you-*** with another psychologist or psychiatrist. This basically means that I am as good as dead. My GP won't prescribe the only drug that kept me semi-functional; I cannot see my previous psychopharmacologist; and I can't sit down with someone new, as I cannot trust them. Any suggestions?

(It doesn't help that my former psychopharmacologist sought help for his own mental health problems in a different country, stating that his psychiatry colleagues were morons).

Most recently, I have been lied to and screwed around by the staff at Southmead Hospital in Bristol. The managers there told me to get my GP to refer me back to see my psychopharmacologist. After being messed around for months, having my complaint closed without resolution or notice, I finally lost my temper with one of the complaints managers and finished up actually shouting "how dare you?" at her. This is going to be my fault for daring to shout at the idiot woman.

As an aside - and I have no way of knowing if this is true - I heard an interesting story. Many years ago, I used to work at a university. I also used to smoke, so would get chatting to the same members of staff as we stood outside the building, puffing away. One of the academic members of staff told me that he had been sent to see an anger management-type counsellor. I didn't ask exactly what he had said or done, and he didn't tell me. He told me that the counsellor had told him that, probably in four out of five cases, they are sending him the wrong person. This would not surprise me. Anger is a perfectly natural human reaction when you are dealing with utter morons. How the *** are you supposed to keep your cool when you are dealing with people who are:

- thick as ***

- incompetent

- lying

- unhelpful

- completely unaware that they are thick, incompetent and unhelpful, and

- entirely unrepentant about being liars.

Seriously???

  • By the way, I think the so-called "yellow card system" is part of the problem. The system seems better able to detect a 1 in 5000 chance of, say, kidney failure than it is a 1 in 5 chance of muscle aches. 

    It's all bollocks anyway :-(

  • I often wish that I'd kept a list of all the side effects I had experienced... I'm pretty sure that you'd still win hands down, though! One of the most annoying was one of the anti-depressants. It did *** all for my mood, but made me comedically farty. 

    One of the particular problems I have, is that most drugs that are not SSRIs just make me want to punch people. (More than usual, that is). I took my screen name from Jessica Jones (not sure if you know the comic books/Netflix series)... I can identify with her just a little more than might be healthy. Even sleeping tablets make me want to beat people to within an inch of their lives. (I believe the technical term may be "a paradoxical effect"...)

    Feel free to run and hide.

  • I cannot tell you you are wrong. Many professionals are exactly as you have found them. Some are not. But they cover each other’s backs anyway, including in charities. 

    All i can say is that you are not alone with the frustration you feel and anger. And getting a diagnosis doesn’t really resolve that, or change the world or attitudes. I guess all I want to say is hang on in there, step back a bit and look for alternatives. Support from people with similar problems is one area, because you are by no means alone. Other people here can suggest where they received support from and for what. Choose what works for you. I did find support from an exceptionally rare source ... a professional, but the NHS will be cutting that off soon. I don’t fill the criteria. I don’t put on an act either. I can walk away with my pride intact knowing I am resourceful.  I do find some books really helpful. Mostly they are written by other autists. We can help each other. We don’t need fancy qualifications. We have life experience. 

  • You may actually be able to answer a more specific question. At the university where you are based, would one of the disability service managers state that "autism is not an excuse for rudeness"?

  • Oh, and by the way, since I can walk and talk, the chances of me being able to claim PIP are slim-to-none. 

  • Dear NAS50301,

    First of all, thank you for taking the time to type out a thoughtful reply.

    1. Feel free to decline to answer, but did you find the narrative in the creepy AF flying frog book? (or whichever childrens' book they used)

    2. I realise that women are supposed to be better at masking. I can (with effort and/or payment) be very polite. I guess this is the upside of having good manners bullied and beaten in to me. The downside, other people seem particularly confused when they've pissed me off and I stop finding any reason to play polite.

    3. I realise that there is known overlap between ADHD and ASD. I was surprised that the ADHD tendencies seemed to be used as a reason that I couldn't have ASD. Yes, I can go and explore somewhere new, but then get really upset if someone puts the fairy liquid in a different place in the kitchen. (And yes, it has to be Fairy, and only the original scent...)

    4. You say, "it is not"... I asked if there was any research to back up their claims that their approach is less likely to diagnose women, and they said there isn't any. Just because the system you're familiar with correctly assesses some women, does not mean that it is without bias.

     

    5. I'm unsure if I have worded that in a clumsy manner. My GP and me have "had our moments", shall we say. After the psychopharmacologist wrote in a clinic letter that he thought he could be autistic, my GP seemed to find me easier to deal with. It could be co-incidence, it could be me mis-reading things. But my GP seemed a little kinder to me. I didn't mean to suggest that he should be able to diagnose me. My comment was meant more along the lines of "if he was unsure, would it be unprofessional of him to second guess the opinion of the [so-called] expert". 

    6. You state that I could have re-arranged the appointment. All that would have done is drag things out even more. One of the problems I have, is that if I meet someone, or chat to someone after I have taken my (stimulant-based) ADHD drugs, they'll think I'm fine... even when that couldn't be further from the truth. Instead, I was led to believe that the only way to complete the assessment was to meet with him - in a different county, and in a town that I had only visited once before. That appointment was completely unnecessary. 

    You also state that "you're the one that's in control of your life". Y'know, I used to believe that ***, too. Then I grew up, got shat on a few more times, and realised that the entire system is weighted against me. I've tried telling people what is wrong. Guess what?

    a) they don't listen, and

    b) they don't give a ***

    c) even if - by some miracle - they did give a ***, there is *** all they can do about it.

    It wasn't just that the appointment was unnecessary... it was that, when challenged, he lied about it. The appointment was not diagnostic... but I had gone there in the belief that I would be able to present evidence that might influence the diagnosis. This was not the case. I was under the impression - which had been reinforced by various healthcare professionals - that I couldn't register with a GP in the area I was living in, and keep my place in the diagnostic process that had begun. During that time, I was suicidal, fading fast, and had to leave what I was doing. I don't want to go into details here... but I'm probably at least £15,000 out of pocket.  

    I have been lied to by so many people. I have no ability left to trust anyone

    You suggest trying to get help to "stabilise my mental health". Trust me. That is a lost cause. I will never have any quality of life. It doesn't really matter how much of it might be because of depression/ADHD (cost me my first career, and prevented me from being able to develop another)/ASD/PTSD. It will never be okay. I will never be okay. I know this - not because I am depressed - but because I am not an idiot.

    As a slight aside, knowing this piss poor excuse for a forum is going to edit my language seems to be making inclined to swear even more.

  • I have all the hilarious ones like coughing up blood with blood pressure pills and almost total paralysis with another.    The hypertension is a semi-permanent side effect from an immunosuppressant I took 7 years ago.

  • From my personal experience, I doubt you're a "1 in 1000" when it comes to experiencing a metric *** load of side effects. I do too, and basically, I've become incredibly cynical about the "odds" given on the information sheets that come with various drugs. I suspect they are based on an overly rosy take on the stats from the clinical trials, and fail to properly reflect real world scenarios.  I usually have some of the 1 in 10, a couple of the 1 in 100, and one or two of the 1 in 1000 or more. The information in those leaflets is usually bollocks. (Wonders if the forum will permit "bollocks"...)

  • Former Member
    Former Member

    I am answering as an educated autistic woman.

    1. Yes - this technique formed part of my diagnosis

    2. Yes. Women present differently to men and have often spent years masking. The assessment is one person's educated opinion though so another specialist may disagree. 

    3. Many autistics have ADHD.

    4.It is not. I was diagnosed from speaking to a single assessor. I work in a uni where we assess many autistic females each year, they receive their diagnosis after seeing a single assessor 

    5.It wouldn't be unprofessional of him. He is a general practitioner rather than an autism specialist though so he may have no idea if your autistic or not

    6. If you were that worked up that going to the appt was dangerous you're the one who's in control of your life so you could have re-arranged again. The way you've written about your experiences it comes across as though the assessor cared for you and worried about how you'd take his opinion so he took time out of his busy schedule to see you. 

    There are millions of autistics and like NT we all present differently. However, you do seem to struggle a lot less than me in social situations e.g being able to chat to others whilst smoking.

    From your post, I can see how the assessor felt that the trauma you've experienced is having a significant impact on you. At the minute it seems like focusing on stabilising you MH and especially how you cope with difficult situations would be the most sensible, then seeking a second diagnosis when you have less health issues affecting you.

    If you'd feel more comfortable seeking private support, if you haven't already and are eligible, you could apply for PIP to pay for these additional cots.

  • Nothing except the meds for my health problems - I'm one of those 1 in a 1000 people who have all the terrible side effects to practically everything.   I stick to what works.

  • You're welcome - I'm always smiling Smiley

  • By the way, thank you for your reply. I should have made me more depressed, but the smiley face and the validation were actually really important to me.

  • It's that lack of accountability that scares me and infuriates me in pretty much equal measures.  I had a lousy experience with a CareUK-run facility, and finished up questioning whether their treatment decisions were based on patient interests, or the payment by results system (by which they are reimbursed). They started making up lies about me to try to discredit me. Thankfully, by then, I had begun recording my phone conversations with them, so I can prove they are lying bastards. I doubt anything much will come of it, but being able to email that to the CCQ was rather satisfying ;-)

    All mental health patients should have to read the following. The first article I found particularly interesting, as it really hits the nail on the head from the point of view of arrogance, and "professionals'" competence remaining unchecked. Even though it is about psychologists, I suspect every point it makes could be applied in equal measure to psychiatrists. 

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/what-your-therapist-doesnt-know/517797/

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/04/mind-fixers-anne-harrington/583228/

    (There was another article that I found quite fascinating, and I can't find it. I'll post it if I can find it.)

    You speak of being medicated to oblivion. I must have tried somewhere between 12 & 15 different drugs. People don't seem to understand why I am refusing to take any more!

    I honestly believe, that - with patient consent - all verbal interactions with healthcare professionals should be audio-recorded and stored in a secure cloud-type facility. I imagine the main people that would have a problem with it would be the healthcare professionals... lying bull *** merchants that they are. 

    One of the things that sickens me the most, is the concept of "professional standards". I know that NHS staff have been fired for doing things such as playing that stupid "lying down" game that was all the rage some years back (and posting the photographs on social media). Apparently this means that they are incapable of providing decent care to patients.  As far as I'm aware, none have been fired for doing *** all when they have seen wrongdoing occurring, for example:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-40721094

    The *** cancer "surgeon" who was struck off for butchering his patients. How many "professionals" stood in an operating theatre with him and thought "what the *** is this *** doing?". How many of them have had action taken against them? My understanding is none, but I would love to be proven wrong.

    They lie, and no-one cares that they lie. But when someone like myself has a serious problem with people who lie, I am deemed to be the problem.

    Despite desperately needing help, I'm too scared to engage with mental health services again. I tried to contact the local home treatment team, and they told me that I didn't meet the critera. I asked what the criteria were, and the woman said, "I can't tell you." I said, "I'm suicidal", and she hung up on me. 

    I have a suspicion - that I cannot come close to proving - that the more intelligent people who have empathy and can see how *** the system is, are the people most likely to leave it. 

    My fear is finishing up like this lady:

    https://www.autism.org.uk/about/stories/alexis-quinn.aspx

    I wanted to believe that things like this didn't happen, and that maybe I was just being paranoid. I read that story, and just know that I need to ensure that they never take me alive. Like I say, I don't know if I'm autistic, or suffering from PTSD or similar. I just know that there is no help out there for me.

    (Sorry for any typos. I can't see a way to edit posts after I have made them.)

  • Sorry to hear you've had a tough time-  but in my experience, most of them are totally incompetent - and if they had to do a job with a measurable output, they would be unemployed.    Their 'go-to' treatment is to call you depressed so they can medicate you into oblivion so you're so spaced that you can't possibly act of any bad thoughts.

    The engineer in me very quickly spots how systems work - and our local MH team are, like you say, a bunch of lying, incompetent, two-faced **** and they refuse to follow their own internal procedures and they lie to each other - and their system has no checks so they can get away with it.  

    Rotten from top to bottom.

  • Apparently some of my language has been auto-edited.

    I'm sorry - I thought this was a forum for adults?!! :-/