New contract includes clause about being "of sound mind"

NAS49818 said:

It's a Junior Python Developer position?

Unless you are dealing with real flesh and blood Pythons, I don't see why the *** they would ask that question!

All jokes aside, nice job there! Pleased for you! The money should be a nice cure for anxiety!

NAS49818 said:

What constitutes "of sound mind"?

That's subjective at best. I'd just ignore it personally. Unless it did become an issue with them, then I would try to get them to prove I wasn't. They aren't going to pack you off for observation, so it's not a thing that they can really bring into play. As Plastic said, it's an archaic clause. It actually sounds like something from a Victorian novel, not a contract from 2018!

Autism isn't an issue that can really be put into "sound mind" territory. It is your state of mind, not an unsound mind. If they are accepting your applications with everything considered it shouldn't be a problem. Tics don't constitute an "unsound mind" either. As for anxiety, try not to overthink things at the moment. Easier said than done, but I've fell foul of the "It's not the things that are happening, it's the things that haven't happened yet" mentality. It's probably an autists worst enemy.

I wouldn't think too deeply, you haven't started the job yet. Just enjoy yourself, and don't let it be a thing that gets in the way. You can be stigmatised for anything, you could for having a big nose, or a pot belly. Until you are, you aren't. You can end up being over-sensitive, and end up spoiling for trouble. I know, I've done it. I'd just ignore it, and just settle in worry free. I tic too, and I don't really give a *** what people think. I used to, but why worry. I make jokes about some of my tics, it helps.

Congratulations, and all the best on starting your new job!

l think 'of sound mind' is another way of describing someone without mental capacity to make decisions.

Anyone without mental capacity cannot legally enter into a legal agreement, for example write a will or consent to medical treatment or its withdrawal.  Decisions are usually made for them by someone appointed by a court/tribunal.

So in an employment context the 'of sound mind' clause is nearly meaningless unless someone begins to suffer a condition such as dementia or they have such mental trauma or brain injury that they are no longer capable of making decisions and someone else is making decisions on their behalf.

I believe this may be an implied term of employment anyway (in other words it 'goes without saying', in the same way as someone who loses their sight would no longer be employed as a taxi driver even though this would in all probability not be stated in their contract of employment.)

An.employer can dismiss someone on grounds.of.capability and the test.would.be are.you capable.of doing the job.

Having said that, for those covered by the equality act the employer would have to make reasonable adjustments. Autism is not a mental illness and in itself does not mean thoughts are not rational, in fact autistic thoughts are often more logical and rational than those of a neurotypical. Autistic individuals are more likely to suffer from stress and anxiety and as such it could be discrimination on several counts. 

Adjustments have to be reasonable and an employee will often argue that adjustments sought are not.reasonable.

Another thing to bear in mind is that until you have been with an employer for two years you can be dismissed without being given a reason and unless you could prove discrimination you would have a hard job fighting a dismissal within this two year period   Your employer should have sickness, equality, and grievance procedures and you should study these. An employer failing to follow its own policies is always cause for grievance.  Seek advice from a union rep if you are a union member, or Acas wi!ll give you advice if you contact them.

But until something actually happens the only other thing you could do is ask your employer what they mean by this clause, something which, understandably, you may not wish to do as it could bring another load of questions.

I found this comment on a Mumsnet discussion from 2010 - seems like this clause is something archaic you can probably just ignore:

"It used to be standard wording in many employment contracts - the idea predates the disability discrimination legislation. Also common in directors' service agreements.

I wouldn't be too concerned about it as it is just standard wording. The advice I give employers is either not to bother putting in this wording or if it's in an existing standard contract not to rely on it - if someone is ill (for whatever reason, disabled or not) there are proper processes to follow in order to terminate the employment if that is the only reasonable way forward, and most employers will want to make sure they follow these to avoid claims."

Best wishes in your new job! 

Yeah I just don't see how it works, whether it's a new thing people are putting in contracts or if it's something that's always been there. It could be something they have in all their contracts or it could just be for me!

Seems to be an odd clause - how could it be measured or enforced without ending up in court? Surely, if you've lost your mind, work would be the last thing that would bother you?

Companies always seem to include unenforceable text in contracts.

It's a Junior Python Developer position?

They have the same clause in the application for citizenship of Singapore.

What exactly is the job?

I'm so sorry to hear that! I really hope he gets fired because of this!

Very interesting question.  Unfortunately I don't have a good answer.  Waiting to hear from more knowledgeable persons.

At my dismissal hearing.  My manager put forward the argument that I should be dismissed because my behaviour was bizzare.