Published on 12, July, 2020
A little disclaimer here. This is how I think, I’m not trying to tell anybody else how to think, the government or the powers that be do a good enough job of that, these are simply my humble thoughts. If you don’t think like me, great, like Temple Grandin once said, the world needs all kinds of minds, and I agree wholeheartedly. So I’m not trying to tell anybody what to think and I’m not trying to say that I’m right and others who think differently to me are wrong, I don’t even recognise right or wrong in this sense. All our thoughts, are right for each one of us no matter how different they are from somebody else’s. They’re all right, equal and they’re all vital to each of us. Nobody can tell anybody that they’re wrong. I’ve had 50 years of people trying to tell me that I was wrong, and they never succeeded.
Thoughts are like soldiers. The soldiers in the First World War were vulnerable and open to be taken out at any given moment when they were above the trenches, out in the open. My great grandad used to say that often when the men went out from the trenches, they were so cold, tired and hungry, that they almost welcomed death, they had lost the will to live let alone fight, at this stage.
However, when they were in the trenches, they felt a level of protection. They were hard to defeat. They would hunker down and were almost invisible to the enemy line and the longer they hunkered down, the harder they came to be removed.
If we deal with our thoughts when they appear, out in the open, vulnerable and fresh, we have the opportunity to take out any offending thoughts as they arise. However, when they hanker down and get deeply entrenched in our deeper mind, they become invisible to the conscious mind and are therefore harder to root out. However, although the deeper thoughts are now invisible, they are no less dangerous. In fact, like the soldiers in the trenches, they are more dangerous.
When I was younger, I used to be obsessed about getting to the bottom of these thoughts. Without realising it, all I was actually doing was burying them deeper and establishing them firmly in my mindset so that they eventually became beliefs on which I based the whole of my life. So after a while, I was seeing the world through the lens of these disturbing, unhelpful and even harmful thoughts. They coloured my world view and they became my world view and I couldn’t understand me or the world around me.
It’s taken me many more years to uncover and root out the destructive thoughts that held me captive and I now deal with the new thoughts when they arise, while they’re still fresh and at their most vulnerable. I no longer allow these thoughts to rule my life. I have reclaimed my own values and world view and no longer accept those of others.
For example, our society is based on the premise that money holds more value than human life. From this premise, it is easy to see the justification for wars and killing people. After all, the taking of a human life is not important compared to what is really important in life, money, and wars are always about power and control, i.e. getting more money. I never bought into this belief. I know many people, the majority of people in this society in fact, value money over human life and they are therefore quite justified for killing a man for his money. I never saw what others saw in money and I still don’t, but I don’t condemn a man for his love of money, to him, money is everything, as my understanding of what god is to me. I understand now why people love making money, how they love hoarding it, going to any lengths to get it and not caring who they hurt along the way. Why would they? ~ care about human lives that is. Human lives have little more importance than the dirt beneath their shoes (which is highly valuable (to me), but has no value to them as dirt probably costs less than a human life, which is already way down low in terms of what’s valuable and important in life), so what harm is it to take out a few people, or more, now and again, for whatever reason, it doesn’t even have to be about money. The human life is way down low, below most things in life but always below money. I see so many people clearly demonstrate their values in their everyday lives. They do jobs they hate, that make them miserable, that make them miserable to be around and they do jobs that reduce their health. Yet it’s ok, because they have their eye on the prize. The pay packet at the end of the month. They get their elixir. And I understand that now. Of course they don’t mind being miserable and unhappy because they’ve got the very thing they live for. I’m no different to them. I would go to any lengths to protect my integrity and would go to any lengths to help another human being. I have. And I have gotten into a whole lot of trouble for this. So now, it’s not that I would give any less of my life for another, but that I am learning to work smarter. And it’s easier now I understand that others really are just like me. They love their god just as much as I love mine and we would both go to any lengths to get and protect our gods. We are just the same, we just have different goals or values.
I was getting so entrenched with all these thoughts about money (that I still don’t understand but I do now accept that it is god for the majority of people and that is as perfect for them as my idea of god is for me) and the thoughts of wars and killings, that the very thoughts I was considering, we’re killing me from the inside enemy line, I just couldn’t see it. But I’ve cleared the decks now, I’ve got everything straight. Some people, the majority of people, so I wouldn’t even be able to argue that they were wrong, even if I thought they were, which I don’t, love money. Money is their god and coming close to that, is all the things they can buy with their money, all this new food type stuff that isn’t always made with just food, but other things as well, all the chemicals and pharmaceuticals that make them feel better after eating all that stuff that they call food, all the cars and houses and clothes and make up that they buy, whatever they buy really. I’ve come to see that it seems that whatever money can buy is good although it then begins to get confusing because some of these things have more value than others. Lol! I stop right there. I have learned to no longer interrogate the hell out of everything and accept that there are some things in life that I will never understand so I just have to accept them. And it seems the majority of the world understands the rules to where these things stand in the area of importance, like they know the rules of social interaction. I don’t understand either and my freedom came from realising that I don’t have to understand. Autism taught me that. Getting my diagnosis was a total game changer for me. I no longer have to try and understand people because it seems to me that we’re all the same, we simply have different values. The majority of people value money and all it can buy and I value human life and all it can bring. Everything seems to be an industry these days. Religion has always been one and now the market is open for the industry of spirituality. It all evolves around god, aka money. Everything makes so much sense to me now. I feel so much safer in the world. I don’t feel like I have to ‘get my point’ across anymore, to defend myself. And this love of money isn’t just at the heart of nt’s, it’s also at the heart of many nd’s and I could never make my autistic brother’s and sisters wrong, lol, even if at first I thought they were.
I think I’ve found my peace. We are all the same, we just hold different values or we hold different things to be of value to us and that is just beautiful. Before I got my diagnosis, I thought everybody thought the same as me. I only got my diagnosis in late October last year, and already the world has become much clearer to me. I was operating under the impression that everybody thought like me so I couldn’t understand why people would say the things they did. I understand them now and I apologies to everyone I’ve ever spoken to. I can see I must have looked like a total mad woman. But can you imagine, I thought people valued life over everything else, when they didn’t, they valued money. So I thought they were just being mean to me and trying to wind me up by saying things that clearly went against this value. Such as talking about the justifications for war etc. My poor brother in law. I had him pitched as the ultimate winder upper. I thought he was intentionally out to wind me up. I could never understand why people wanted to do that. What they got out of it. I felt persecuted, like the black sheep, the one everyone wanted to pick on and make fun of. But I see now that neither he nor any of the others were trying to get at me. They were speaking honestly, from their own values, which were not like mine so of course there would be confusion. I guess because nobody else thought like me I was also fighting with the possibility that I could be wrong, that of course money is more valuable than human life. How could I be so dumb! What I’ve realised is that nobody is wrong and nobody is right and we don’t have to fall out now, because I understand you. By understanding my autism and realising that not everybody thinks like me, I can see where our point of contention came in.
Phew! Glad I sorted that one out. I’m starting to feel that gentle compassionate and tender love for people, in a way that I witnessed when I was in Australia. WoW, this is pretty big. S**t, I think I’m gonna have a melt down. I think I need to take a moment. It’s ok , I’ve got this. This is not a meltdown, this relates to what I was saying in the beginning about our thoughts being like soldiers. My immediate thought pattern then, in less than a second probably. Was, OMG you’re going to be good with people now, that means you’re going to have to spend more time with them, you won’t have any excuse now. But I caught it. It’s not true. Just because I’m going to get along better with people from now on, it doesn’t mean I have to spend more time with them, it’s my autism that makes me not be comfortable being around too many people too often. It just means that when I am around people, I will get on with them a lot better. I will filter everything they say through the filter of money is god, and then, I’ll be able to understand them a whole lot more and I won’t just think they’re trying to wind me up! I feel like that person who’s suddenly horrified to realise that they’re the last person to realise they have this thing! Only I’m not horrified. I feel at peace. Maybe I’ll never speak at all, ever again (typical aspie mind, black and white). But seriously, what’s the point? I don’t mean that in a negative light, on the contrary, I’m quite delighted at the prospect. I have loved the occasions I have gone mute, but I’ve never been able to bring that on with conscious effort. I once taped my mouth up at work, but got told off for it and got told to take the tape off as it made other people uncomfortable and they didn’t think I could do my job properly if I didn’t participate in their endless complaints and trivia. They even thought I might not answer the phone to clients or that I was never going to talk to a client again. The clients weren’t the problem (mental health team), it was the staff. But they wouldn’t stop talking to me with all this atrocious nonsense, so I stopped talking. But it didn’t work. I managed only about half a day of luxury before they made me take off my home made mask. Humans are benefits driven creatures. What is the point of talking to somebody who doesn’t speak your language? The only benefit could be if the other person has something you want. Then it might be worth the effort to try to establish some level of understanding and communication between you both so you get what you want. You don’t have to speak the same language for that. I’ve been in places where nobody speaks my language (English) and I still got what I wanted. You could speak to another to learn more about their world but to be honest, I’m over that. I know the world that is ruled by money, in as much as I want to and my world is so far removed from most peoples that they wouldn’t even begin to imagine that they might want to know anything about mine, they don’t even think it exists, so they’re not going to want to know about a world that doesn’t exist! Lol! I understand that now.
Maybe I’ll just be the mad tree lady, who lives in the forest, talking only to the trees and birds, nature and the wild life and my dog and cat of course. I think Chris Packham got it right. Live in a forest, hunker in, like the soldiers, and you’ll be safe.
I look forward to finishing the book but it sounds complicated. The first bit that I’ve read so far wasn’t talking about methodogies, which I don’t understand so maybe I won’t understand it but I’ll give it a go. Thank you.
It’s true! Lol!
Good god no, I love that we are all different and individual, it makes every day a wonderful adventure, I am forever surprised that each new person I meet in life brings even more goodness into my life, I’m fascinated by just about everyone if not everyone I meet. We are all individual expressions, so individual that there is not another person like you in this whole world and even that thought alone fascinates and excites me. It seems like your world see individualism as negative. All the kids wearing the same clothes at school and out of school. People who don’t know me think I’m weird because I wear wellies with everything including my bikini. Your world seems to have an obsession with people being the same, you all go to school at the same age, you leave at the same age, you get jobs and have them for the same exact number of years before you can retire, you get married in the same way, you bring your kids up the same way, you go to the doctors when you’re ill. It is your government who tried to wipe out Ayurvedic medicine (which I follow) during their reign over India. They declared that the Indian people must now use western doctors and not Ayurvedic doctors like they had for probably the whole of their existence. They wiped out individualism and it wasn’t even their f*****g country. It’s like when they invaded Iraq or where ever it was where Sadam Hussein used to live. They don’t even allow different countries that have nothing to do with them to live the way they want. That blows my mind. Why would they care how a leader of another country leads his people? I’m different, I’m an individual yet you people slaughter me, on a daily basis if I let you. You tell me I’m wrong, I’m delusional, I’m bad, I should do the things that everybody else does at the same age groups. I don’t even know how old I am and to have to remember that all the time and remember what I should be doing now at each age would make my life not worth living. I think it is you people who think that to be individual is negative because you people never fail to tell me I’m wrong, for being different and an individual. I love individualism it seems you guys don’t.
Nothing is ‘important’ to me as you put it?!?! I don’t understand? How is one thing in life any more important than another? How do you do that? It’s like the unloving thing, how do you even begin to decide that one thing is important and another not? I don’t know how you do it? I don’t enjoy seperation at all, I don’t understand it or what that has to do with being an individual. This is where my head starts hurting and I start freaking out because I just don’t get it. I know I don’t know anything and you guys are out there, you know so much but surely it’s you guys who like everybody to be the same! I mean, who would dress their kid in clothes that somebody else wears, meaning the same things? What if they didn’t want to wear that? Are they then excluded from school? Isn’t that chasing away individualism? I would never put my kid in clothes somebody else told me he had to wear, never, I would never do that to him, I would never tell him what to wear.
Of course we all have different gifts, that’s what makes this world so amazing isn’t it? Otherwise what would be the point to this human life? That’s why I can’t undetstand why you guys don’t like that, you want everyone to learn the same things at the same time, dress the same, think the same, be the same. I told my son very little but made it clear to him when he said he liked school and wanted to go, that under no circumstances what so ever does he ever let any of those teachers tell him what to do or think, if he doesn’t want to do it, don’t let them treat you disrespectfuly and of course, he must not do the same to them but he must not get any ideas that they are somehow better than him or know more than him because they’re not and they don’t but neither is my son any better nor does he know more than anybody else. I’m startled by how much your world likes everyone to be the same. You can almost guess how old a person is by how they look and dress, each age bracket seems to look like each other, how weird is that! They had to be trained to do that, to all want the same look, or even know what the look is, because they do all seem to want to look the same ~ where do they get the training? It astounds me but it’s a cool way of guessing how old someone is. Maybe the training is from television, radio and magazines and newspapers and news things on the internet, because I don’t have anything to do with those things so maybe that’s where they all get the training from and how they know what look to have. I just thought they were all f*****g geniuses to know what the look is and how to do it! Lol! My sister used to try to help me but they all accept that I wear what I want now or rather I wear a their cast offs! I don’t see the point of buying new clothes from a shop when they’re always getting rid of clothes.
So you’re saying that ‘things’ are important but people aren’t, they’re just all of the same importance but some things are more important, much more important and are the things that are not important less important than people? You have so many complicated rules that I feel dizzy just thinking about them. It sounds like people are of little or no importance in life but things are either important or not, different from people, they’re all the same so they can’t change to be something more important but we can then all chose things that are important, so long as it’s not a person, because they can’t be important, they’re just all the same? Very confusing and we haven’t even got on to the criteria you use to decide what things are classed as something you can chose to be important.
The only way I have learned so far, to be separate, is to make all the superficial/transient things the most important things in life, such as money, clothes, houses etc, they seem high up on the list of importance for a lot of people, and then I can look and see if I have any of these things and if I haven’t then I can see myself as separate. But it doesn’t last for long lol because when I’m alone I don’t think about those things I just be without trying to fit myself into looking like others, which never works, I rarely pull it off. I do with my physical appearance but then I open my mouth and it’s all down hill from there. My son said I can clear a party in 30 seconds! Lol! Who’d want to talk to a delusional all loving idiot like me who knows nothing! I didn’t know I had a choice about who I am, as you seem to have, you seem to be able to choose who you want to be but I can’t seem to be anyone other than me. I can’t even manage that! I can manage being me I mean I can’t manage to make myself be something else. At least nature agrees with me on that. A tree doesn’t try to be a flower for example or some other kind of tree that it’s not.
I don’t think I can be matched up with any theory to be honest, which is ok
I think I might understand where you are coming from. I could be very wrong, but my understanding (so far) is that absolute equality (amongst people, animals, everyone, and everything i.e. blocks of wood…) is really important to you (which I respect,) and so perhaps you see individuation or separateness or 'being an individual' as a negative thing?
If that (above) is sort of correct then, I don’t see it quite this way as; I don’t see being an individual as a negative thing.Valuing people (animals, nature etc.) is really important to me too, but I also really enjoy my separateness and my individuality too.
I think everyone probably has the same sorts of feelings, thoughts, capacities, qualities, needs, etc but they present in unique ways in each of us, like we all have access to the same ingredients perhaps, but the quantities and the ways in which we use these ingredients means we are all unique cakes. And I like being a unique cake, haha.
In this way I believe that I can be a valuable and equal part of ‘the collective of life’ (and no more or less important than anyone or anything else in it, exactly as you say) but also, at the same time, I can be a separate and individual part within that collective too.
In this respect, I like to think I feel a part of ‘the collective of life,’ but I also value my differences, my individuality, and that there is only one me.
I don’t think I would want to be either one or the other (i.e. all individual, cut off, separate; or entirely collective) because I think both positions need and complement each another?
I don’t think I can be matched up with any theory to be honest, which is ok because I’ve got autism now, I just say I’m autistic which means I don’t have to try to fit myself into another thing such as the things Tom was talking about, realists and some other things. I’m happy with autism
I didn’t think it applied to me! Lol! What you said after that seemed to apply to me but when I looked up what imdividuation meant, I realised it couldn’t apply to me because I don’t see myself as separate from others, apart from the superficial level where we all look different.
I’m no different from any other person or a block of wood
I'm not 100% certain but I don't think a block of wood can experience Individuation .
I think its okay to think of Individuation as simply being 'a specific level of personal development.'
And if you have reached this 'level' (of Individuation) it tends to mean you have probably achieved certain qualities such as; taking personal responsibility for yourself, your actions and your choices; being self-aware; understanding the impact of your words, actions and behaviours on others (and vice versa,) appreciating that we are all different (subjective.) Those sorts of qualities really.
Transcendence (for me) simply means personal growth.
I actually have no idea what any of that means even if I understood the individual words, I can’t understand them together in a sentence but I looked up the word ‘individuation’, and I think it means seeing yourself as an individual so I don’t think it does apply to me because I’ve never seen myself as an individual. I’m no different from any other person or a block of wood or anything else in this universe for that matter so I can’t see how it applies to me?!? And I don’t think I’ve trascended any limitations because I don’t think I have any. I know I have a body which could be seen as a limitation but I don’t see it that way, rather it’s a tool or vehicle I can use to express even more of me so I don’t think that word applies to me either.
AngelDust said:I.e. upon Individuation, transcendence is inevitable.
Regarding 'individuation', transcendence is as AngelDust states 'inevitable', but just as importantly transcendence is 'concurrent' as a process too.
Oh yeah, yeah, I love him too. He definitely needed love. If we have to come back to this earth and keep living our karma, that soul sure is going to have a lot of lives.
Himmler (not sure who he is)
The architect of the Nazi holocaust, who oversaw the murder of at least 6 million jews.
Heinrich Himmler
It was the same for me. When I gave up searching, I found peace and as you said, everything is within us so that’s the only place to look anyway.
I think you are probably right
No?!?!?
Haha, sorry I was feeling quite playful, and I personally found it funny to just say 'no' to your premise. I appreciate my warped humour may not be everyones' cup of tea though.
Um...what to say... I have very much enjoyed and am really enjoying this thread immensely. However I do not personally believe Jesus exists or ever existed. So I sadly feel I have nothing to now offer if this is the hard road down which this conversation is now heading.
Jesus was the greatest metaphysician there ever was
I thought I had better edit by adding the quote I was directly replying to as I am finding it a bit hard to keep up with the order of all the different replies...
No .
Hi Martian Tom,
I do not think you have taken up too much space. And I like multitudes best
I think (sadly) there are traces of self-admonishment in some of what you have written which has reminded me deeply that, I think what can often pain us the very most in this life, is perhaps not what others do or do not say or do to us or themselves, but what hurts us and ‘rocks us to our core’ is when we find we have lost (or not yet found) trust and faith in ourselves?
In this respect, I think that if we have faith in ourselves, if we are able to deeply trust our own self, our own judgements, the very ‘inner wisdom’ and ‘humanity core’ that you spoke of, then nothing anyone can ever be or think or say can ever really be in opposition to us, attack us or threaten us, as having trust in ourselves (paradoxically) enables us to be open to change and be challenged, and to not fear being changed by or challenging others too?
In this way I think it is important to be human, to be fallible, to be wrong, and that these things, (however unsettling they naturally are) are nothing to be deeply afraid of, but are perhaps blessings really, yes? I think who we believe ourselves to be, and ‘this life,’ are all stories really. And parts of those stories are very much ‘just dust and ashes,’ (as you say) just as much as those stories also contain divinity, flames and passion too. And I think our lives must cycle through both these phases (these two ‘impostors just the same…’) constantly, eternally, otherwise I do not know how any of us, as individuals, could ever grow? In this respect, we are ALL, always, both angel and dust…
I expect to be thoroughly (clinically) depressed at times throughout my lifetime, as the alternative is too horrible for me; as it may mean I have accepted the unacceptable, I have grown numb, I have stopped growing. Depression can be a great reminder that things are not as they should be or need to be for us; a life changing insight wearing the heaviest of painful disguises perhaps?
I would not want anyone to think I am being flippant about depression because I know there is little soul destroying pain like it. But like so many people who have come to terms with suffering depression, I am often (but not always) able to see how it may be an ‘evolutionary process’ rather than solely a curse.
I personally think it is very much okay to ‘retreat to the cave’ (as you say) when feeling threatened, I see nothing wrong in this at all. I think maybe this could mean that what you need to overcome any perceived threat is already with you, a strength inside you waiting to be found or reclaimed, rather than something you need to leave the ‘cave’ to find?...
Growing up ND is usually a story of having many long years of having been told to not trust yourself, to not trust your own judgement, to not be yourself, and this is a very painful passage to travel through. Though I strongly believe that this same story is equally true for NTs too. Do we not all grow as children into what our parents, our environments and our childhoods shaped (or needed) us to be, to then spend our adulthoods finding out which of those bits were right and which were wrong?
Perhaps in this respect the only constant meaning I have found is the quest to find out who we are and attempt to accept what we have found? Even if, ultimately, those around us do not see, do not agree, do not accept or do not love us as a result? I think we (human beings) are always ultimately alone with ourselves and must face (and answer to) ourselves alone in this respect?
I found my own greatest movement from my most recent bout of depression came when I accepted there was no meaning, when I gave in from trying to find one, (I kind of gave in, gave myself to not having one, not gave up in trying to find one and I think, for me, therein lies all the difference?) And I decided instead to find out what life might be like to live with no reason. It is turning out to be far more interesting than I could have imagined. I think we can fight very hard ‘to know,’ but I have found it can be nicer still to not know, to not need to know, to have no answers, because it leaves far more room to be pleasantly surprised.
Not least of all I have learnt that not having yet found what you are seeking, or being deeply unhappy with what you have so far found, I have learnt are never good enough reasons to not be here. I do not know, I am only one small person and can only speak from my own experience, but I deeply suspect that the seeking (amongst all the painful dust and ashes, and the fire and divinity that every search must entail) but definitely not the finding, IS the reason?
Warm hugs for everyone.
Jesus was the greatest metaphysician there ever was so it is a bit difficult to talk about metaphysics without mentioning his name. I know many of the religions say their religion is based on the teachings of Jesus but they’re not, but because they say that (without actually teaching it) many people, who have had a negative experience with religion, also have a negative association with Jesus. He’s a fun guy to study though and there are many interpretations from him being a state of mind to him being an actual person and one of, if not, ‘the’ most influential person the world has ever known, whatever form they know or understand him/it as. All interpretations are great and even though they are each very different they are all lead to the same thing that the message is about self empowerment, freedom, bliss, living the life of your dreams and that you hold all the power within you. Totally unlike many of the religions that teach that the power is outside of a person with some mystical god like figure but it’s easy to discover that those teachings were simply about power and control and gaining vast wealth and property for the Church. The actual teachings of Jesus are the most practical and complete guidance system for a free and happy life which to be honest, doesn’t require any other teachings at all, other than learning to read and write etc. But in terms of learning how to be the best you can be, how to have a great life and achieve all you want in life, there are no better teachers than the man or whatever he/it was, the teachings are the best.