Exteme male brain theory 'unhelpful'

I might appear more domesticated than you, but there are things I really struggle with, cleaning for example, half the times I just don't see the mess, how do you get rid of dust, when even with a damp duster, it just moves away for a bit and then comes back, it feels more like rearranging dust than cleaning. The same with ironing, I jokingly say I do politically correct ironing as it all comes out differently creased, but thats almost to true to be funny, things I iron do come out differently creased, often indelibly creased, I can rewash the garment and the creases I ironed in are still there and won't come out.

I was never into dolls either, except my Sindy Doll, baby dolls and prams ust didn't do it for me, but a toy farm and a riding stable did, I'd spend ages with my biscuit tins of farm animals and horses, taking them in and out of fields. I loved my dolls house, but it had no dolls in it, dolls wern't allowed to live in it, it was MY house!

Maybe you can write an email to him, with a clear criticism of his opinions, theories or views. His email is sb205@cam.ac.uk.

I don't know how often he replies, but if he does, it may surprise you (or not).

I don’t know enough about Baron-Cohen to comment on his views about women but having read more about his science, I don’t see any other valid reason why he would disregard the actuality of women’s lives. 

I fully agree with you about the systemisation required for running a home. I get the impression that you are a lot better at it than me and that you are fully ‘domesticated’. I can’t manage to get my home properly systemised. I get by with some of the necessities yet it’s easy to systemise my research and other interests.

Growing up, I wasn’t into dolls, fashion and other so called suitable pastimes for girls. I wanted to be a boy simply because they did the things I wanted to do. Now, I’m happy as a woman because society has moved on (still a long way to go) since then.

I feel that as a woman about men

It honestly seems like most people seem to forget women are people just like men are, they mostly feel and deal with the same feelings, emotions and experiences even if there's undeniable differences in other aspects

I don't know either Jamesmac, but many do and get really offended if you suggest they might do things differently, they're also the ones who seem to enforce gender stereotypes most crtitically and nastily. 

I often have a strange reverse of this in that others can't seem to accept that there are things I can't do and need help with, like pumping up my tyres, no matter how hard I try or what I use I always seem to let more air out than I put in. But often I get told to do it myself and stop being so girly and stupid, maybe if I had an impracticle manicure and face paint put on with a trowel I might not get this response, but its very starnge. 

Sometimes people just want a rant, they've had a crap day, inanimate objects ganging up on them, inconsiderate drivers, late buses etc and the best thing one can do is agree with them, there isn't anything to be fixed as such or if there is then the right tools to use are on either side of the head, the ears. However if there is something thats not working then someone trying to help solve the problem is really good, as long as you don't ask them if the've tried the obvious. I get shouted at by people who want to help me, but seem to treat me like a 5 year old asking really simple questions. I think the balance is accepting others are intelligent human beings who've tried solving something to the best of their ability and now need something a bit more specialised.

I can't stand NT gender stereotypes. I mean, I find women that follow the typical female stereotypes boring and kinda frustrating to be honest. How can a person even stand to have their entire lives revolve around being pretty and overly subservient and avoiding anything that's actually exciting or cool? 

It's mostly old ideas from a dated patriarchy that create this standard that girls and women should be like this. 

Because most people are looking for emotional support first, not a solution. For me, a solution solves the emotional issues, assuming I can identify what they are. So I do it the opposite way round.

This tendency to avoid leading with an emotional response, due to maybe not knowing what is appropriate, is a cause of some of the disconnect.

Note that it is a generic male tendency to look for solutions to problems first, whereas it is generic female tendency to listen and offer support and understanding first.

This tendency, together with systematizing, is partly behind the idea of a male brain approach.

TheCatWoman said:

stop defining things as male and female behaviours, especially in childhood? Some girls like doing "male" things, like climbing tree's and building dens, some boys are more nurturing and like cooking, so what? This sort of gender stereotyping causes all sort of problems, boys being thought of as "gay" because they don't like sport and prefer art, girls being called all sorts of horrible names because they do like sport and don't like playing with dolls. This affects NT's just as much as it does us, but it does lead to another hurdle for autistic people, when we're expected to behave according to a stereotype, that outdated, not scientifically supported and yet has the power to change how we are in the world, what help and support we get, if any. 

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I felt out of place (and was bullied) all my life, because my interests and desires did not correlate to most/all other females I knew.

I could never understand,  why people hurry to comfort someone instead of actually helping them solve the problem (if possible). For me someone has to tell me what they are feeling, but once I know, I'm not indifferent to that.

I have a lot of 'male' brain if you decouple humans this way - enjoying machinery and football for example. I remember being told by a colleague, 'you aren't natural, dear' when I said I didn't want children. Roles were much more defined at that time.

I think the key is to change our social expectations over time - perhaps this is happening anyway. To stop thinking in terms of 'male' and 'female', rather than simply, 'human beings.' Binary excludes in all sorts of ways whereas 'rainbow' thinking covers every type. There are other kinds of social equality issues, for example sport and the use of public toilets that would need to be ironed out - perhaps based on physical attributes. I simply couldn't use a urinal.. and I even at school sports I could throw a javelin but would be no use at boxing or football. 

emanningis said:

my intuition is that the whole theory should be revised.)

Indeed. yes. That's what science is - a continual updating as new things are discovered. Though you can understand those who discovered 'whatever it is' - no one likes to think of themselves as superceded - though it's really, 'standing on the shoulders of giants'.

DarkElf said:

What the **** does the bloke who played Ali G and Borat know about brains?"

this must qualify as joke of the week. 

Maybe the middle ground is to stop defining things as male and female behaviours, especially in childhood? Some girls like doing "male" things, like climbing tree's and building dens, some boys are more nurturing and like cooking, so what? This sort of gender stereotyping causes all sort of problems, boys being thought of as "gay" because they don't like sport and prefer art, girls being called all sorts of horrible names because they do like sport and don't like playing with dolls. This affects NT's just as much as it does us, but it does lead to another hurdle for autistic people, when we're expected to behave according to a stereotype, that outdated, not scientifically supported and yet has the power to change how we are in the world, what help and support we get, if any. 

I think that there needs to be some middle ground with this. I have read the discussion. I was more boyish in personality when growing up and fitted the pervious school of thought. Some girl's will be like this and some will not. I hope whatever is arrived at covers the needs and diversity of both of these groups.

I think someone who thinks only men systemise has never run a home and family, you need to be highly organised to do it properly. I wonder if this is another bit of the patriarchy coming out, men systemise, whereas women mearly organise. I've always had the impression that Baron Cohen dosen't really like women that much

I see. I guess me being an oversensitive crybaby is due to me being hypermasculine... yes, that manly urge to be distracted by and become obsessed with cute stuff. I totally have extreme male brain.

Seeing as he's made a world wide name for himself on the back of his "ground breaking" work on autism, it's quite a thing to admit that he got anything wrong, so he should be applauded for that, but I agree he does need to go further and clarify what he means. Seeing as many of his ideas formed the basis of modern testing for autism, I they should be reviewed too, I still think the AQ10 test descriminates against women and people who aren't systemisers.

Thanks for the link and for your summary. 

emanningis said:

Whether the evidence still supports the theory, I don't know. (But my intuition is that the whole theory should be revised.)

I don’t know either. I know that at least several scientists have criticised his methodology and some of his findings, so I think your intuition is correct.