finding the nuclear option.

I think most human beings (including autistic people) ultimately need connection with others. I know this sounds obvious - but have you considered online dating options? Or are you not interested in romantic attachments? I always struggled socially and meeting my partner (now husband) saved me. I’m not sure I’d still be alive without him. In fact I doubt I would be. And I think relationships where both partners are autistic can work wonderfully well. 

Kate Kestrel said:

I still don’t understand why there isn’t some kind of thing set up to help autistic people make friends with other autistic people.

I think the biggest reason is that autists are particularly subbish at being friends - at least from the perspective of the other friends.

With neurotypicals we are often weird, awkward, don't get social cues, can't tolerate loud bars, crowds etc that they like or talk about our special interest when they have no interest in them

For other neurodivergents the issues are often compounded.

To find the sweet spot where people are tolerant enough of our differences and we don't mess up too often is rare, and we also tend to be failry variable depending on out stresses or level of burnout.

We are also rubbish at knowing this info and admitting it to an app, so the quality of info won't often give the desired outcome.

I'm also not sure where the friends would come from for this - who would volunteer for this task?

I still don’t understand why there isn’t some kind of thing set up to help autistic people make friends with other autistic people. It seems so many of us are wanting to have friends, and I think autistic people find it easier to get on with other autistic people. Maybe things like this do exist but I’m not aware of them. My youngest son (who is an adult now) really wants to have friends and a girlfriend but has left college now and has no way of meeting people (that he can face doing anyway). I’m lucky because I met my husband at college - if it wasn’t for that I’d probably be completely alone now. My husband has many autistic traits and we get on so well, but neither of us have any close friends - just people we occasionally email who we used to know at college. 

Peter said:

I have no idea how to find that medium at this point

I would recommend getting a therapist with experience of working with autists and work through the issue, develop a strategy and look to make that positive change. It helps to actually pay for advice I find as we place more value on it than if a free location like this site 

it’s almost getting to the point where the feelings of social isolation and misery are such that they are getting in the way of me doing what I know I ought to be doing in terms of trying to keep my career alive. Maybe there is a happy medium somewhere between too comfortable that you don’t want to take any risks to push things forwards and so depressed and despondent that you don’t have the energy to take things forward. But I have no idea how to find that medium at this point

Ann :) said:

What do you think would make you happier? You would like to work in anti-aging research?

I already do but it’s looking harder and harder to stay in. But I don’t know that I have any option but to stay in or just become long-term unemployed. My last period of unemployment was fairly long. I applied to all kinds of things academic and not. But I’ve now got to a level where I look absurd as a job option for a lot of jobs because of my long academic track record. Even tech jobs like programming and web development, the employers would look at my CV and think ‘yeah he’s not going to stick around.’ Research in industry is basically non-existent in my field and skill set. So academia may be my only career option.

my research does make me somewhat happier. but frankly if anything it was a dissatisfaction in my social life that drove me to get my career on track. There is no social component to my career. Other people may find social connection through the workplace I never have. It was a complete collapse of my social life when I was forced out of the Anime society that shook me out of my complacency to finally do something about the career but I’ve got stuck in a rut after I finished my PhD. Because I was comfortable being moderately poor but with a good social life. As long as I had a roof over my head and some food to eat enough money to get out of the house once a week and buy some drinks with my friends I was happy.

misery forced me to make a change in my life as my social life collapsed and that change has yet to bear fruit in my social life.

Hi, I can relate to a lot of what you say. I used to have 2 things that kept my life together 1) my hobby: hiking, running, outdoor activities. 2) Science. I haven't been able to hike or run or do much exercise at all for 4 years now due to injuries. Science has been my other passion for years which I love- I have had a few bad experiences in labs and I finally thought I had found a good PhD position with a supportive supervisor and environment, but it's not even 6 months in and I feel like every shred of self-worth I have has been taken away. I've been made to feel so inadequate and I am now getting the impression my supervisor is trying to get me to leave. I also feel alone and even if I have free time I don't know what to do with it as I cannot do my hobbies. I feel trapped in so many ways and like you say, I doubt many people would even notice if I was gone. I have a few friends mainly through my bachelor and Mphil but most live in different countries or cities now. We do keep in touch but I just feel so weird and inadequate and alone. Most of my connections are through science. I can also relate to trying to build up some confidence and always trying to pull yourself together again and keep going in the hope that things will improve. 

I have a few times changed my circumstances in the hope this would help. In a way it was good as I got myself out of one bad environment but somehow I just managed to land into another. 

I think what you say about having to change circumstances is true though. Dr. and therapists usually just focus mainly on intrinsic issues, they pathologise our feelings and challenges. It's something wrong with us. Rarely do professionals say that it is in fact that there is something wrong or incompatible with the environment we are in too. I'm also not sure what the nuclear option would mean for you. I've taken big changes (my main aim was to find a good PhD position where I could settle), had to leave one place as I wasn't paid for 6 months, plus not much supervision or support. Then I took a job, which ended up being very long hours for very low satisfaction. I really hated it (and other people working with me have since been off ill long-term with burnout and then quit). Through all the stress I managed to find a PhD position, moved abroad for that for the first few months (this was part of the deal), then moved again. Each time I made a change I thought it was for the better and it felt good. I have little regrets about some of these choices, but then it just turned out worth than ever. And I'm just getting more and more worn out. 

So the question is not just 'what is the nuclear option?' but how do you maximise the chances of this nuclear option actually being better? In a way you could say you will just need to keep trying until you find something that works but that just feels too unpredictable and non-efficient- nuclear takes energy. 

What do you think would make you happier? You would like to work in anti-aging research? What about the things you are most unhappy with? Change is exhausting and scary but maybe it does sometimes actually end in a better outcome. I don't know. It's difficult to know how much energy to put into trying to endure and salvage the existing situation vs going for something completely different. It sounds like you have tried to make things work within the current situation, so like you say, maybe some more drastic change would be beneficial. The added bonus is that when you change something in your environment, it makes you feel empowered and also at least for me it is then easier to also change things about myself. Because all of these issues are a combination of extrinsic and intrinsic factors. And I am a firm believer that you should try and change extrinsic factors if possible to maximise your chances of success and happiness. 

Not sure if any of this is helpful at all. I hope I didn't talk too much about my own issues at the moment. your post really resonated with me and I want you to know that you are not alone in feeling this way. 

could always dress trendy and hip, sling a skateboard over your back and then ask the young uns "hows it going fellow kids!" that would totally make you seem young and part of the young social crowd.

I’m far more concerned with being forgotten than how I am remembered. People seem to have got it into their heads that I’m concerned about my reputation. I’m concerned about being abandoned and alone.

being successful career wise won’t give me a good social life. Having a great physique might be fun and in fact I have started working out because my doctor strongly advise me to do something about my health, but I doubt it’s going to make my old friends want to spend time with me or help me make new friends for that matter.

of course if I actually could look younger that would probably help. If we ever figure out the scientific secrets to rejuvenation I will be one of the first in line for the experimental therapies.

now that is amusing as a thought, I could always sue the government to change my legal date of birth. It would be completely useless unless I actually looked younger, if you don’t look the part it doesn’t matter what it says on your documents people aren’t going to treat you that way. But if I did that might help and would be an interesting thing to do. And unlike people like ratelBand if you take a lot of body altering synthetic chemicals in order to try and look younger I would suggest that trying to change your legal date of birth would carry a lot more moral weight.

Now that certainly would be the nuclear option. unfortunately there is no pill ready to make me look younger and I don’t feel like getting into a bitter battle with the government over a piece of paper if it’s not actually going to change my life in any helpful way.

well sadly, you are not vladmir putin or kim jong un so you dont have nukes.

the only real thing you can do is be more successful than them, in being better off than them they perceive that also as happier and more successful, they become jealous of you. they dont see the bad parts, no one ever does.

if your concern is perception of your life from them, then all you need to do is simply carry on, be good in career, have a afluent life... they will be jealous of you, your singleness will also be to their envy as they will feel enslaved by their family they made and feel they will never have the freedom and ability you have as a single.

i think a part is people will always desire what they dont have, life is a mixed bag, you will have things but also not have things.... a thing someone will want is alone time and being single and free... but also, people want family and so on... but these wants they clash. cant have both, but theres times you want one and times you want the other.

i wouldnt worry how others perceive you, they are probably jealous of things they percieve you have advantage of but yet they wont see your struggles anyway. they will likely view you as a rich well off free single person enjoying life if you wonder how theyd percieve it, theyd be jealous of that theyd want what you have, thats what they are usually like.... they will be sad in their family... they will hate their partner and feel their partner is oppressive to their life and their freedom. if you want to make them more jealous, take up martial arts and fitness, become a immortal badass that seems immune to the effects of ageing and only get more flexible and stronger and active as you age, that one makes alot of people jealous and feel bad when they compare themselves to you. i personally know a former bully who cant look at me anymore and crosses the street in shame because hes gone fat and old looking while ive gone greek god phsyique like lol 

 but yeah dont dwell on the opinions of sheep.... be the alpha, or the omega, either one, be the badass, the best badass you can be. dont worry about others they will only be jealous anyway. i highly always recommend taking up martial arts. it sets you above and beyond your peers and makes you the leader in reality, even if people dont socially pick you the leader. natural order of life in men by nature, most physically capable badass is the one with control, the one everyone knows is the move maker, the important one.

It occurs to me the friendships in my life all fall into essentially one of two categories. The first are like fires. They occur with people with whom I share a lot in common. Similar interests, similar sense of humour, similar passions in life. We have great fun, we have great times and we have tons of interesting conversations. Sometimes we share similar aspirations and look forward to watching each other achieve those aspirations. But almost invariably it ends with me being abandoned. The fire burns out. The things they used to find funny are now creepy or immature. Some people have described this as growing up. I prefer growing old or just growing boring. And I am a regular little firestarter; I will keep poking and trying to tend that fire trying to make it burn again. And they will walk away tired of being reminded that they’re not the person that they used to be particularly when it’s so obvious just by me existing that to some extent I am.

The second group are more like surrogate children. People with whom I have very little in common. But they’re usually hurting and in need. The relationship is an unequal one and I don’t just mean materially unequal I mean emotionally unequal. That isn’t to say that we don’t really get on or we never have fun together but it’s not quite the same. I am there to support them but they are unable to support me. These relationships tend to persist until they do something that makes them ‘unhelpable.’ Like lying to me to a point where I can’t give them the help that they tell me they need. And without that help they’re no longer so keen to hang around me. Or because They have a breakdown that basically turns their entire life into a blank page scenario and they run off and join the circus or get committed to an institution etc. That sort of thing.

There have been a few of these over the years I’ve put hours and hours and hours of energy and time into. Without expecting anything in return. Maybe that would be the nuclear option. A lot of these people are quite socially skilled, after all from time to time they try to manipulate me. Since I’m putting time into trying to help these souls out because I do genuinely care about them it would not be a bad thing for me to try and put them to work for me somehow. But for the life of me I’m not sure how. If I were to approach it bluntly and directly as a quid pro quo I think they would assume that I’m only helping them because I want something in return and that’s not it and I’m not sure that they would want my help on that basis.

Still in principle it could work. These individuals could go to the places I find it difficult to go, scout them out and be a kind of social fixer. But in practice these individuals are not particularly reliable. I mean people who tell lies and are suicidal tend not to be particularly reliable agents for getting anything done on your behalf much less building a social life.

sigh.

Number said:

....you will find that other humans will start to interact with you in a different way (oh, and don't even start me on animals in this regard!!!)

As I've said I'm an extrovert. My mood tends to improve in a conducive social enviroment; for me not to be as much of a 'debby downer' as I am online. I wish people would stop telling me posative thinking will help me 'make friends' when I know its the other way around. I need meaningful human contact to boost my mood, enable posative thinking, what ever you want to call it. It's like some one saying 'if you want to unlock the door all you need to do is open it to find the key inside.'

I need a pea shooter penfold youtu.be/WMqivuJGGKI

Peter said:

beyond my controle no doubt.

Not so mate.  Read below !

Good morning Peter.

Wow - your writing above portrays you in uncharacteristically low mood, with key messaging of loneliness, hopelessness and "please help me if you can."  If you can grant me the latitude, I will lump these and report your mood as a lack of human connectedness.

You are a man who evidently hates platitudes (fair enough = me too) and only really seems comfortable/able to hang your hat on the scientific method and matters that can be presented, defended and maintained as certainties.

Accordingly, you are pretty-much asking for the impossible in your writing above.....and of course, you already know that.

However, as a science man, you will be cognisant of the "Impossible Number" and I boldly assert that I am he (for you, now) because I THINK I know what your "nuclear option" might look like.

So I expect you might now be feeling a bit precipitously nauseous over fear of me spouting some slightly hippy-dippy sounding stuff in your direction....so just take a deep breath, and maybe give the following some thought;

A wise, wise soul once told me something very flipping obvious = If what you are thinking, believing and feeling is making you miserable, change some-or-all of those things because they are COMPLETELY under your control.

That, dear Peter, is undeniably sound advice - and wholly non-platitudinous.

When you fiddle with these three dials (that are COMPLETELY under your control)

   THINKING

   BELIEVING

   FEELING

....you will find that other humans will start to interact with you in a different way (oh, and don't even start me on animals in this regard!!!)  I don't think you need to "blow the fooking doors off" for it to be a nuclear option......simply unlocking a door (even if you don't open it) can be absolutely life changing.  Twiddle your kn obs sir !!!!

I have always noted that you are very generous and giving of your advice and expertise to others in this place.  If you think you would like some more meat on the bones of what I have written above, then please PM me.  I don't like rinsing my undies in public...so talking about improving one's mental health via human connectedness...between two grown men.....is defo something of a back room discussion from my perspective.

Anyhow.....that's enough from me, trying to help and support you (oh look = human connectedness already?!)

Kindest, warmest and most sincere regards

Number.

Sorry I was referring to the being noticed you mentioned. Finding friends is really hard, I've been trying for years and in my twenties now not one friend.

My social worker recommended I attend groups which appeal to my interests so maybe you could do that? I did that briefly, an art group but the anxiety got the better of me in the end.

I'm sorry I can't help more. I hope you can find some friends, everyone deserves at least one friend.

Oh so your advice of finding friends is become famous? I’m not saying that’s bad advice but it’s a lot harder than just writing a book. I could write a book and maybe a handful of people would be interested in the highly specialist monograph. And in fact I have helped write chapters in Scientific monographs. I’m not exactly a household name though.

if I wanted to make friends by becoming famous I think I need to do something with a little more mass appeal. which is not as easy as it sounds.

Well there's still time to change this - you could still write a book, start a blog, do something in charity... all those things would be noticed 'now'. YouTube videos might be a good way forward, people seem to get Internet fame with it pretty quick

Iain said:

I'm sorry if that wasn't what you were after - I took the "ideas?" part to mean you were looking for input. I wasn't aware of the back story you have now furnished but will temper future input with this in mind,

Sorry I didn't mean to come off as harsh. I'm just tired of rehashing old arguments and hearing the same 'advice' over and over.

Iain said:

From what I have experienced the key seems to be not just holding onto the past things that made you happy but constantly looking out for new things to experience, subjects to explore and people to know - that constant renewal of the joy of living makes all the crap that goes with lifes difficult times tolerable.

I don't disagree. But those 'new things' that catch my interest seem to turn up less often nowerdays. a side effect of being forced into a more insular life by circumstances beyond my controle no doubt.

Peter said:

You may call that growing up I call it losing what makes you special and I’ve known some special people and it’s so heartbreaking to see them lose that magic quality

This is a big part of the journey through life for NTs and for many NDs too - it is easy to loose yourself in the "responsibilities" of everything from further education, jobs, mortgages, children, looking after elderly parents, looking after a partners failing health, getting old yourself etc.

From what I have experienced the key seems to be not just holding onto the past things that made you happy but constantly looking out for new things to experience, subjects to explore and people to know - that constant renewal of the joy of living makes all the crap that goes with lifes difficult times tolerable.

Peter said:

You’re not telling me anything I don’t already know, you’re just offering solutions that I already know don’t work.

I'm sorry if that wasn't what you were after - I took the "ideas?" part to mean you were looking for input. I wasn't aware of the back story you have now furnished but will temper future input with this in mind,

You know I might be immature but what I find really immature is people who can’t bring themselves to be honest about not wanting to be your friend anymore. Who leave you in limbo making you trying to guess if they really are busy or distracted or if it’s just that they have grown apart and have decided that they no longer have a place for you in their life.

The mature way to end a friendship would be to say something like “I am sorry I used to really love hanging out with you and I know you’re a really great person but I’ve drifted away from the kind of things we used to enjoy together and I don’t think I’m the same person you used to hang out with and I don’t think there’s space for you in my life anymore like they used to be so I’m probably not going to be hanging out with you anymore.”

only once have I had a friend break of contact with me in that way. An online penpal I met on a nerdy anime forum many years ago. Do you know what? it was tragic and heartbreaking but it was as heartbreaking to watch her get to the stage where she did that anyway. It happened after she had kids. For a long time now her job and her marriage and worries about adult life had been slowly diminishing her dreams and her sense of fun and they’d been put on the backburner one after the other.

But when she had the kids it was almost like she became a different person. Her view points gradually and subtly began to become less liberal. She stopped talking about the things she liked, she no longer had any time to discuss science or politics or anime or anything that she used to enjoy. She stopped talking about her dreams about the things she’d like to do or had hoped to do or had hoped might happen one day.

You may call that growing up I call it losing what makes you special and I’ve known some special people and it’s so heartbreaking to see them lose that magic quality. To watch people lose their individual quirks and their aspirations to be something different and simply settle into becoming a cog in the social machine. It is heartbreaking.

And this is why I do not want to ‘mature‘ I see it as a form of identity death as losing what makes you special. I need to find friends who can accept me as ‘immature’ if that’s the terminology you want to use.

So when I say I find your responses a little condescending what I mean is its pretty condescending to assume I was somehow unaware that a lot of my problems relate to my friends growing old and growing apart from the things that made us good friends, the things I saw in them that made them special. That and the difficulty of making new friends with a similar outlook after you leave that world of study behind for the world of work.

You’re not telling me anything I don’t already know, you’re just offering solutions that I already know don’t work.