Anxiety and obsessions

out_of_step said:

Nutt's views on alcohol and drugs got him sacked as the government's drug advisor!

Yes I read that about him. Good to know he's not afraid to speak the truth even if it hinders his career.

I think psyche has come back over the last five years or so, albeit in an underground/alternative way. Certainly my band has been influenced by it. I remember seeing the band Menace Beach around 2014 which was the first signs I came across of its re- emergence.

We're not so much garage as more lo-fi, and not really at all heavy. We weren't around long enough to do much before the pandemic and even though we have a few songs out there we hadn't really hit on a sound until more recently. Still exploring it but we're a bit closer I think. I'll send you our upcoming single in a DM, I'm a bit happier with that than anything else. Still also happy to receive criticism though, I always like to push myself. Good to meet someone on here with a similar taste in music. 

EDIT - Don't think there is a private message function on here... I'll share the video when it comes out hopefully within a month or so.

I guess you're asking not just to know, but perhaps also to understand why I feel that understanding/explaining/creating rules has helped me in my jobs. So forgive me if this is a little verbose.

Way way back I was trying to be an artist in videogames development. I used to draw a lot of science fiction and fantasy stuff as a kid. But my cognitive differences (things I now understand to relate to my Autism, ADHD, and memory issues) stopped me turning my degree into a career (and to be honest this was also in 2009 just after the financial crash happened, which didn't help).

But I became a QA/software tester in videogames shortly afterwards. In my mind it was a stopgap while I figured out what to do, one in which I could use my videogames experience. But I got pretty good at it. Attention to detail, understanding of the system the game operates in, and thus how to break it, but also anticipating how users might push at the limits. Also the work doesn't require as much social and political wrangling amongst people- it's not customer facing etc.

I did that for near 10 years. Any time I had to try managing a team, though, I couldn't really do it. I was good at the work of understanding systems, breaking them, getting other people to understand what was wrong, so I just wanted to do the work and be good at it (I think this is a common theme among autistic people, that they just want to keep doing the thing they can do, as capitalism tends to always want to push people "up the ladder" and thus usually into management).

But two years ago I took an opportunity at my work (at the time no longer QA in videogames, but a QA in web software) to show off some creative skills I'd been nurturing as a hobby since leaving my degree behind me. I was able to switch from QA to UI/UX (User Interface/User Experience) Design. I've been a lot happier now that I can utilise some of my creative skills and expertise again, but what has become very clear to me is how much of my love of systems/frameworks and my experience in QA has been useful in UI/UX Design. 

It's twofold- in order to design an experience for a user you have to put yourself in their shoes and try to plot what they need from the application. You're taking their needs and building a framework for them to operate. It's like QA in reverse, but instead of breaking the system you're building it. The second part is that any UI is built out of sets of components and patterns that you re-use. You make them re-useable because they allow a user to get familiar with what they're doing (buttons are always the same shape, a particular icon always means download), and building these patterns and working out how they all fit together is quite fun and rewarding (and I still sort of do my QA part, as I try to test the designs in my mind before they go to development).

I hope that's useful/interesting and not just a big wall of words.

I am interested to hear more about the roleplaying games you've written. I have some ideas for TTRPG designs myself, and I actually think there's a reasonably short leap between UX design and games design. I think designing a games system is something that might be quite satisfying to minds like ours.

Ohhh that's cool! I love old-school psych and garage (like Nuggets) and went to Liverpool psyche fest a few years ago where Cool Ghouls played. There's has been or is coming up Manchester Psychedelic festival but I don't think I could cope with all the young 'uns.  I'd love to hear your songs if you want to share the name of your band. If not, that's ok! I think growing up, psychedelia played quite a part in my life without fully understanding or having tried anything.  I feel like I've come full circle now.

I gave up on alcohol. I've never seen myself as having a problem but would get carried away on a night out. There were several reasons I gave up but anxiety was one of them. Another was knowing I was probably autistic. I didn't feel the need to hide any more. At the start it was more the ritual of having a drink rather than drinking itself that I missed. That's good you are a lot better with it now. Yes, Nutt's views on alcohol and drugs got him sacked as the government's drug advisor!

I meant that question in reply to Bellerophon but I replied to your message by mistake! I have written and run roleplaying games for friends and family, mostly based on Dungeons and Dragons.

That's really interesting. I'd seen interviews with Nutt before and read articles about his research and his views on alcohol, but it was great to see the work in action. I'll continue to do my own research and take note of your recommendations. Maybe if I could get hold of some again it would be worth a try. The shrooms I took were actually legal when I had them as a teen although I know they aren't anymore, but I know people who use psychedelics so I could probably get my hands on some. I've often used alcohol and occasionally drugs, most often to deal with depression and anxiety as much as anything. Alcohol in particular has been a big issue in my life although I'm a lot better now and rarely drink.

Funnily enough I play in a psychedelic influenced band. We have a single coming out within the next few months and it's been good to get back to playing gigs again, even if it's a bit of an extra stress.

I teach adults. I've always worked around people. What about you? So you have created games yourself?

It's good to have people you can talk to...I understand what you mean about *really* understanding it though.

What sort of music do you like to play? Yes I'm a teacher of adults. Do you still take the medication? I came off my SSRIs because I felt they were not really helping. 

It was recreational. Yes I saw that documentary too. I have "followed" Nutt and Carhart-Harris for a while. Nutt has some really good podcasts on youtube and Spotify about a whole range of how substances can be used to treat mental health.  I think it's been one of my interests in the past 18 months! Check out ThirdWave or Double Blind too. That's cool you could have done the trial!

Ive had a LOW dose a few times. Set and setting is important to have a good experience. I had the most AMAZING day all on my own last autumn. It was only on my way home, I realised I hadn't thought while I had been out about anything which had been troubling me. I was just purely in the moment, the present. Appreciating everything. I felt really connected to those walking past with their dogs. I came home and felt really connected to my partner. For a few days after, I noticed I was only eating when I was hungry (ie not comfort eating or just for the sake of it). I felt more productive without realising it could be an effect (I attempted making home made crumpets the day after....!) and just got really in the zone in my online drawing class. I noticed I wasn't perseverating as much either. 

Obviously I'm not advocating anything, but these fungi, alongside CBT, my diagnosis and mindfulness I have found a cumulative benefit with all of these things. My experience with them has helped me be more empathetic and  understanding of others. This has reduced anxiety or stress in some situations. I'm sure everyone has different experiences though.  

That's good that you have someone to talk to. There are a couple of people I can talk to to some extent but no one who really hears me when it comes to a lot of the issues I experience.

I play the guitar and a bit of piano. That's a shame you couldn't attend the course. So are you a teacher? You mentioned lesson planning. 

I meant to ask about your experience with shrooms. Was that recreational or through one of these trials? I saw a recent documentary about these psilocybin trials helmed by Professor Nutt (brilliant name), where they use psychedelics to treat mental illness such as depression. I actually signed up and was accepted myself a few years back, however by the time they got back to me a good few months had passed and I'd started taking the antidepressant mirtazapine, and so they said I was no longer eligible. I actually took shrooms when I was 15 or 16, but typical of my excessive nature I scoffed about seven and had an absolutely terrifying trip. Not a good memory. 

I’m also a case of being one extreme or the other in most of the ways I live or things I do.

Yes I've been listening to that book on Spotify.  I'm not sure if it's him reading but it's very repetitive and gets me to sleep. It's helped me a lot this week actually. My report mentioned I can get fixed on detail rather than the bigger picture. I think that's what's happened this week and has contributed to the ridiculous anxiety I've had. So now I need to work on looking at the bigger picture. I think this will help. It's helped talking to my partner because he's very level headed. Do you have anyone to talk to?

I started on the meditation a few months ago when I wasn't in a particularly stressed state. In the past I did it only when things were bad and it was a bit like firefighting. It has helped this week.

What instruments do you play? Your job sounds fulfilling, doing something you enjoy and working with vulnerable adults.  I wanted to do a creative writing course for mental health with my local adult centre but couldn't attend.

My ex used to complain, that I can go only to extremes, no middle ground, I do not find it a bad thing, to the contrary, and my my point is we can be on both ends

Do you mind if I ask what you do for work? I've enjoyed creating systems to organise my work and study times and also games which rely on extensive rules systems which you have to learn.

I meditate when I'm not too far gone with depression and anxiety. I hope I'll get some benefit from it one day, I remember a few years ago I got to the stage where I was really successful with it, but even when I can keep it going for a couple of months now I never get back to that stage. I think life happened to be a bit less chaotic back then. I hope to improve my attention span with meditation eventually.

Yes that's it, you don't have to enjoy the thing really, it's more a neutral state of flow which keeps you away from worry. It's all still there but you don't notice it, like finding a successful distraction when you have a headache. 

I'm a musician so when I write music or perform, or sometimes when I run music activities for vulnerable adults, which is my main job at the moment, I get into this flow state then too. Writing can get me there as well. It tends to be around creative activity for me. Maybe you could try creative writing or sketching. I've also done stuff like alphabetise my books which keeps the obsessions at bay.

I listened to an audiobook of The Power Of Now. I found Tolle's life story interesting and from what I can remember the overall message is a good one, but it's basically a self help book which is a genre I'm not that keen on. I watched a few of his talks as well though and he can be quite therapeutic to listen to.

Wish I had that one... my flat is a tip!

only if you do not comply

I like to fixate about collecting statistical data for my special projects, like designing an NT trap, I do not think they would call it normal. but it makes me feel uplifted, while if I do not do it I start worrying and being paranoidal :P

plus some OCDs are very useful things to have on automatic, like cleanliness for example

I get you now! For me, diagnosed as an adult, I didn't know that I didn't didn't fully understand some things (like in social situations) and that can lead to feelings of unease. Something feels off but you don't know why.  

Yes I think if you can identify the root cause, that can help you get on top of it.

Reading it back, yeah that last part wasn't particularly clear. I suppose I was explaining that autism has helped me to understand a key part of what I enjoy (largely in my work) is in understanding/explaining/creating systems and rules, and I think the other side of that same coin is that when you don't understand the systems and the rules it leads to negative emotions and worry.

But yeah, to your point on "meta" anxiety, I agree trying to deal with your anxiety by explaining or discovering things about what your anxious about is a bit like treating the symptoms and not the cause, but that identifying these symptoms, or roots of anxiety do help you to understand the broader reasons for the anxiety (like are there common themes here?). Ideally you would just worry less to begin with, and, as you imply, sit more comfortably with things that are unknown.

Yes I think unknowns cause anxiety for a lot of people. I try to CBT my way through stuff. However, this doesn't always alleviate the anxiety. (It depends on the situation and CBT has helped a lot). I think sometimes it's not even worry (ie I'm not wondering about every eventuality for something) but just general uncertainty of the unknown. 

In my CBT, I was practising sitting with uncertainty and the subsequent discomfort. This has helped me to build up tolerance of uncertainty. It's not perfect nor will it ever be, but it's helped give me a different perspective.

I don't fully understand your last sentence, but I think you're saying the lens of autism helps you work things out better for whar is causing you anxiety. If this is the case, I completely agree. Although I'm trying to get out of the habit of finding reasons for anxiety, if I can pinpoint the cause, it does help to alleviate it. (Going a bit "meta" here......) this may be because I have found an answer to what the cause is and that reduces uncertainty of wondering what caused the anxiety in the first place.

out_of_step said:

but I think the root cause could be to do with AS and not fully understanding a situation.

Just wanted to contribute to this in particular, because I know for sure my own discomfort/anxiety in any situation directly correlates to the number of unknowns. I mean, typing it out it sounds obvious, but it's still just such a major part of it, and the tangible ease that follows finding out certain things. I have, at the same time as this, figured out that I have always enjoyed figuring out connections and systems (and things that now make more sense through the lens of autism) and wonder if they are both part of the same needs of my mind.

The problem with obsession is that it's always there, you cannot turn it "Off" or simply decided to do something else, or think of something else. Intense anxiety and depression are, I think, part of that-you get obsessed by whatever is most on your mind, good or bad, then cannot let go. People with Aspergers and Autism are more susceptible to depression and anxiety, I don't believe that that's in question. The question is how do we deal with it, to live a "normal" life... Can we? I think it's just a part of who all of us are...?