Doubts about gender identity

I am interested into how many males are in this conversation.

yea i tend to refer to myself as gender nutral  with no strong feelings any way 

My beliefs are important to me, so the reaction of churches is also important.  If it is a terrible sin to have doubts about your gender identity - I don't think it is but I can't prove it isn't - the reaction of "I'm never going to speak to you again" is clearly not going to help me.  On the other hand the reaction of some churches of "Oh don't worry about it" isn't helpful either.

I have joined another church, specifically because they have an LGBT subgroup.  I do wonder if I should apply the principle attributed to Groucho Marx, who wasn't the first person to say it, slightly misquoted as: "I have no wish to be a member of a church that would accept a person like me as a member".

On your last question, it sounds more like the sort of thing that would happen in the USA, but it is a worrying possibility.

Hi UK Aspie. It sounds like you were lucky.  There does seem to be a divide between religious groups that wont countenance such issues and those that feel they have a mission to put people right. I know of one that produced a newsletter purporting to have saved one individual from aspergers who was giving an interview in the newsletter about this salvation but was rather vague about the evidence for having aspergers.

Some of these groups try very hard to recruit token disability representatives, but there seems little regulatory control over what goes on as it is supposed an individual has a choice to disassociate. That's not always so easy for people on the spectrum, and they could be taken advantage of.

On the sexuality side I was made aware on one religious group ten years ago that was recruiting gays on the pretext of being friendly then detaining them against their will and trying to exorcise their sinful habits by force.

Does NAS have any insight into religious groups trying to adopt people on the spectrum and whether the best interests of the individuals is being served by this? I'm not saying such recruitment is necessarily bad, but I find it rather worrying nevertheless.

The "religious zealot group" that I was a member of took quite the other view.  Even raising the question was enough for "Out and never darken our door again".

I did wonder if the leader of this group was making the common mistake of confusing gender identity with sexual orientation and had doubts about his own orientation.

Their view on disabilities seemed to be that a disability is only real if I can see it.

It is good to see these issues are being aired, even if the topic has had a recent 2-month gap. It must be very worrying for parents seeing their children on the spectrum living with the difference and discrimination that brings and then having gender or sexuality crises on top, with all the stigma that still attaches.

For the individual on the spectrum I can see Hope's point of view. If you are already different because of autism, and the identity you find is one you are happy with, fair enough.

My worry is with individuals with strong morality issues.  There is huge conflict over sexuality for example if the individual is torn between aspergers high morality and inbuilt inclinations. Similarly some people in the spectrum are drawn to strongly evangelical religion which is bound to create conflicts, and some religious zealot groups like to adopt disabled people in the firm belief they can cure problems.

Also in the nature of people on the spectrum this is likely to get bottled up and not expressed properly, and I can imagine some parents being quite glad not to have to talk about it.

So please keep this topic going.

I believe I am gender-less. Gender does not shape who I am. I like to look good, but only if it makes me comfortable, so no high-heels, make-up or short skirts.  I look very girly, so would not pass for a 'tom-boy', but I do not abide by any gender-rules, because who cares? we are all human in my mind, and that is what counts. Live and let live, social norms are a waste of time

Interesting....

In terms of how I identify myself, I am very definitely female. Absolutely 100%.

As far as society's pigeon-holes... I'm not a girly-girl, I like to wear clothes that are comfortable. And if you think I'm taking tweezers to my eyebrows etc you've got another think coming. But I'm definitely not a tomboy. I like skirts and dresses. And I don't object to makeup if I'm going out, although it's too much effort for every day. Make of that what you will.

Now in my case, I think my strong sense of female-ness has confused my understanding of my sexuality. I am beginning to suspect that I am not in fact bisexual, but that the biological imperative to procreate couple with the confusion of undiagnosed autism has caused me to confuse friendship for more. Lots more thought needed...

Gender identities and the "tough bloke" image are rather NT conformist things - it is of no surprise if Autistics feel they do not fit into these neat pigeon holes.

Well put and a clear datum on the subject, whilst the journey you took was more like the blind alley myself and any other person takes, in the absence of labels. The light at the end of the tunnel lands each person on a different path. I merely wished to highlight that in this refracting process of gender identity and who am I, one of the out pipes is homosexuality and as you ahave eloquently presented transition is the conclusion and out pipe as another part of this.

Have you ever considered before the advent of surgery as we know it what the healthy options in an inclusive society would be, how would a free person go about their life in a happy manner if they were able to do so and what would that be like for an inclusive people group to witness and then respond positivrely to. I have no reservations about the choice of transition and am in no doubt of the relief and orientation it provides for the recipient. I whish and have personally explored this issue in great depth and from a position of considerable innocence, ignorance and vulnerability. 

Whilst the presententions of such social inclusion are limited, they do exist and have an emmence effect in the positive, as you state you clearly experience yourself in this time.

To expand this in wider society was once a norm and 3500 years has passed. The hows and whys of our illuded neighbours are the rocks upon which we can flounder in this time.

Proper intelegent stuff pleased to meet you.

WB

I agree that homosexuality and gender dysphoria are commonly associated and lumped together as LGBT = anything non-mainstream to to with sex or gender.  They are also commonly confused, even by doctors.

If a person transitions MTF or FTM and keeps their orientation, which is usual, they will be homosexual either before or more usually after, so that does link the two subjects even more.  They are still not the same condition though.

The psychiatrist I saw about my doubts as to my gender identity said that I couldn't be trans-sexual.  His main reason was that trans-sexuals present in their early 20's.  There are a number of things wrong with his reasoning: for a start the only published figures I could find were from Leeds NHS and said the median age of presentation was 42.

If I had gone to a doctor in my early 20's and said I thought I had gender dysphoria - which I wouldn't because the term had not been invented then - I think the most likely response would have been "Oh, you are telling me you are homosexual.  That's illegal, I'll have to tell the police."

Well now I DID mention Homosexuality. As the experience of gender dysphoria and homosexuality have no problem in holding hand from time to time and I think is pertanant.

This is a recognition of the observation rerarding presented mixed personas, the range of experience this can relate to is expansive and includes the question of both dysphoria in isolation and homosexuality as a finding in some as a result of initial dysphoria. The subject of sexual identity is vast and an area that in my opinion needs the broadest of approach and the gentlest of touches if any person is to find healthy expression and security.

With this issue and its deamons (not a miss spelling) size nines, preconceptions and prejudices of any nature will make the journey for any ASD Adult tough enough, never mind the specifics of this condition, (ASD and Dysphoria) and how it is handled by NT's with fears and agendas, Sexual experience  in its many forms as an off limits matter for anyone with ASD is a revisit to victoriana and a recipe for exploitation and abuse.

If there was a limit to the expectation of the subject dysphoria and its experiences, the issue of homosexuality was not part of that expectations, then I can understand your reserve, but get out more and read lots more!

Does anyone else have another view on any other aspects of gender dysphoria and identity.  There is room surely for this discussion to include Trans-sexuality? Coss-gender presentations? plain old confusion? any takers ? any givers?

Have some pride !

"Closet closed"

Personally I am fond of the word 'androgeny'.

A rather late response to Wolfbear.  I might be quicker if email notifications of replies work.

I didn't mention homosexuality.  That is another question.

A rather late response to Wolfbear.  I might be quicker if email notifications of replies work.

I didn't mention homosexuality.  That is another question.

There is a lot of mixed messaging going on in this discussion from my personal observation.

The distinctions of Dysphoria rather than Identity delay and the differentiations between sexuality and its ordinary developmental confusions, in my exprience would do well to have a "Datum" or two. ( central point of reference)

Homosexual identity discovery is a process that can be very mixed and prolonged for those people not on the spectrum. The injection of social preconceptions and fears will only confuse further.

Homosexuality is not Gender Dysphoria, but gender dysphoria can be experienced whilst discovering sexual identity. Mosly when it is a matter of discovery rather that a foregone matter of indivdual experience.

The tendancies toward literallity is a key factor and component in this process, as is the modern option to sugically persue an individuals choices.

The process of personal elimination will most certainly pass the issue or gender dysphoria, as it is a natural passage of questioning in the dicovery of sexual identity, that is not hetrosexuality.

The normal ASD manner of extreems in assesment make this more so. The realities of surgery and the sexchange process will most certainly be an appropriate part of this understanding.

 It is paramount whilst discussing all sexual considerations not to be leading and to allow for very much longer assimilation processes. In a world that seeks to polarise and fix "who" and "how" we are. This fluid concept will enable greater health in any ASD person. This area has its own fluidity and is a very good basis to introduce the concept of hidden movement, WE DO FEEL.

"Brain Sex" by Anne Moir and David Hassel is an informative book that gives the stepping stones of this emmence subject, a balanced and open basis from which to launch. It is not exclusive in it's findings but presents the basis of our development as sexual beings into a simple and informed context. The notion of homosexuality as a result of environmental hotility, whilst contentious, be it fact ? The presence of homosexuals as people of this world is as long lived as ASD and their dissenfranchised status throught the recent centuries is no different in it's struggle to the struggles we in the ASD Community face today. The Idea of a single linear status is clearly dispenced with.

It took me Twenty years to clearly identify who I am, with regard to sex and sexuality. With the possibility of abuse as an added component of the vulnerability That is our ASD this can be a long and lonely and confusing journey. Before you seek to coach an ASD person on these subjects, please check your baggage at the door and inform yourself of the lives of those living the experiences you wish to understand.

eg:

There is a plethora of evidence and at times in each generation anger. Of hetrosexual interpretations of the gay community which is diversity on endorphines; being innaccurate because it does not consult the community it wishes to describe and represent. 

 5 generations of ASD and a fruit in the basket in every generation. I am the 3rd of these wonderful people and we have a great history. savants and more.

I am the Butch alfa #1 survivalist, with a warrior mentality, All woman. All *** and All ASD 

"concern about their self-identity in general" - which could include gender identity.  Plus my point that we are likely to talk about something that it is "not done" to talk about.  That might mean there is not so large an overlap as I thought, but might not.

I was a volunteer for a research project recently that specifically wanted people on the Autistic Spectrum with Gender Identity issues.  A small population, but they got their volunteers.

I have worked with many people with ASD who have expressed concern about their self-identity in general - people have told me, for example, how they have "adopted" various interests, mannerisms, & clothing styles from imitating those around them. Sometimes they have "switched" identities quite abruptly.

I have seen several young people with ASD who have shown & expressed definite "gender dysphoria", & who have received some assistance with this via their local Child & Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS). One boy had a long-standing interest in female pop singers, which had extended into dressing up, & then into expressing more general dissatisfaction with being male.

A Dutch study published earlier this year of around 200 young people referred to a Gender Identity Disorder (GID) clinic found 8% had co-occurring ASD, so there is some research evidence to support a link between the two.

It's an interesting question.  My partner who was my husband had treatment for gender dysphoria, transitioned from male to female and is now much happier.  Our son was diagnosed with Aspergers.  I think there's a genetic component to Autism - there's not usually held to be one with gender dysphoria as far as I know.  I myself am bi and mix in the bi community where there are a lot of neurodiverse and gender variant people and I see some overlap.  For myself I notice some AS type traits, and I'm on the butch side as a female ... definitely not the usual stereo-type woman.  I like the diversity of the bi community very much!