Thoughts about autism and BPD

The friend of the family you mention in your post has a very misguided attitude and I am disturbed that she's professionally involved with us (assuming that's what you mean by 'a specialist').

Growing up with autism might not be trauma in itself, fine, if you only count the direct effects of finding it hard to read people and respond, having sensory issues, etc., but a lot of us- I would hazard a guess at the majority- have experienced an entire childhood of bullying and social exclusion caused by the reaction of other people to the 'not normal' and that certainly is traumatic for anyone (as any research into the effect of bullying on children could show you in a nanosecond). Ignorant woman. Good grief.

I'd like to have not-so-friendly words with her. >_>

I had a very similarly traumatic time at school to you- I've had stones thrown at me, spent a year having my lunch breaks in the tops of tall trees because it was the only place people couldn't find me, classmates who didn't like me tracked down my address and defaced my house, the only teacher who ever tried to put a stop to it was told by the perpetrator "Good, I'm glad I'm a bully. She deserves it". Quote.

Is it any surprise a lot of us end up with mental health problems? Probably not. 

Writing the long-term effects of prolonged mistreatment of a child off as "misunderstood aspergers"? Plain daft, I agree. It wouldn't surprise me if you had BPD, any more than it would if a NT person with a similar history did. I won't pretend to know all about BPD but it would make complete sense if it is indeed something that is triggered by trauma.

On a final and related note, please don't think that being autistic makes you bad, or that it is itself a bad thing, or that you deserve any of the treatment you got/get from other people.
Too many people think that already, and they're wrong.

Aspergers is the way I process information, aspergers is the way I experience and respond to the world. In some ways it's overwhelming and uncomfortable but in many more ways it enriches my life. On balance, I'd never change it. 
What other people have inflicted on me is not aspergers, it's the stupidity of the "different= metaphorical torches and pitchforks" brigade and it doesn't have to be that way.
I feel so strongly that we shouldn't just accept it and start hating autism too, because letting that attitude go completely unopposed is just  helping more aspie kids have the experiences we did. I know how bad it was- I don't want it for other people. :( 

Hi,
I can't help but feel that ASD and BPD can be comorbid... I have a son with ASD, I always knew and sought diagnosis when he was 8 (I was home educating him and his siblings so felt it was the responsible thing to do). George has grown up knowing that he sees the world and experiences things differently and that's ok, truly ok :) .Our relationship within the family has always been solid and supportive and he's achieving more in his life than I was told he ever would :) 
However my partner (not my children's biological father) has had quite severe mental health problems that have become more evident over the last 5 years. Prior to the mental health problems, my eldest daughter pointed out that she thought he had Aspergers... it turns out she may be right and we are working through the assessment processes. After a particularly bad episode last week my partner was hospitalised and has now been diagnosed with BPD but they agree that he may well have ASD too (as it's not mental health but developmental they can't diagnose), but said that the BPD may be an unhealthy coping strategy for trying to control a world he just doesn't 'get'. 
Next week he is going to start working with a therapist using the Emotional Freedom Technique and we're both hoping it helps him accept himself and develop healthier coping strategies for his anxiety, etc.
I'm truly sorry to read your experiences, I know it's hard but don't give up, you can come through this and live a happy, healthy life x

It could be a possibility  you were misdiagnosed and the Asperger's syndrome  (now called ASD/ high functioning autism) was missed completely, because nobody bothered to investigate that avenue.  This is exactly what happened to me but luckily qmy Autism was caught just in time. However without any obvious signs of mental illness the social workers and mental health professionals still wanted to put me on setraline and anti depressants to which I said no.

The irony of it was I had gone to be assessed for PTSD due to domestic abuse, if the professionals involved had it their own way they would have declared me boarderline or even with a cluster A illness in accordance to the American DSM

Is it possible then to be on the Autism Spextremely and still have mental illness, wouldn'the that makes us really poorly?  

No I don't think ASD is the cuse of your BPD I think it is a possibility you may have been misdiagnosed with a Mental illness (BPD) with your ASD being completely missed.

One of the issues that we have with autism, and its comorbid conditions is that psychology is a much less easily understood science. It is nothing like the physical sciences where experiments can be done with precise measurments. Two people with BPD can present with very different characteristics. The DSM allows for (IIRC) any 5 from 9 characteristics. It seems to me that BPD is perhaps best thought of as an umbrella term that describes people with discombobulated (can't think of a better term!) thinking patterns and this shows up with a variety of symptoms. A manipulative streak might be its expression in one person.

Misdiagnosis is also rife in MH. I attended a talk by someone from from Mind who basically said that it was so subjective that it was sometimes little more than trial and error. Diagnoses had to be tried and tested, one by one, until a really good fit is found. There are a number of threads on this forum where people were diagnosed with BPD before being diagnosed with autism. It seems to me that one can have both, from what I have read, but I think there is a preference for people to be given a primary diagnosis of one condition.

Also someone who is suffering from BPD will be interpreting the disorder through the thinking patterns and processes of someone with BPD. It is perhaps unsurprising then for two people to have fundamentally different ideas of what BPD is.

I'm not a MH professional so the best I can do is refer back to articles in NHS choices or wikipedia if there is something that needs clarifying.

I'm sorry Maia, but it doesn't sound like you actually know anything about it. You clearly haven't read anything about BPD, and autism professionals have explained to me that it is absolutely possible to have both. Also, you don't know anything about me. Are you a doctor? Are you a psychologist? If not, then I'm sorry, but you haven't got a clue and I'm not listening. You've really hurt me by saying this. How dare you say I have no insight into other people's minds. You're full of generalisations. 

Thank you, recombinantsocks!

As far as I could tell, the nhs choices pages  http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Borderline-personality-disorder/Pages/Symptoms.aspx don't mention manipulative behaviour. I wonder if there are different criteria in the Uk compared to the American DSM which does mention manipulative behavior as an option?

BPD includes manipulating others and social situations using your
incredible insight into other people's minds and high social skills which
give you the ability to make people believe all sorts and fake all sorts of
emotions

BPD includes manipulating others and social situations using your incredible insight into other people's minds and high social skills which give you the ability to make people believe all sorts and fake all sorts of emotions: it's therefore completely incompatible with autism, which is the absence of the ability to see into other people's minds, let alone manipulate them. The emotional rollercoaster and self-destructive aspects are compatible but under different names as different disorders (bipolar and idk for the latter).

nb no dispespect to bpd, i believe it's the ability plus the inability to resist using it because of the constant emotional instability and sensation-seeking. If you have the sensation-seeking combined with autsim, it's usually adhd or add

Going back to your original question about BPD and Autism. I have read a number of posts on here about people being diagnosed with BPD before being diagnosed with autism. I didn't know what BPD was and guessed that it was something you might be born with but mostly it seems to be acquired through difficult/abusive childhoods. I had previously thought that I had issues that might be related to PTSD because I could see that the battering (physical and mental) that most people with autism suffer might explain some of the mental issues I had experienced. It seems to me that BPD is actually similar to what people used to call being a "disturbed" child or adult. It also was clear to me that autism would be very hard to spot beneath the behaviour that someone with these issues would have. How can you spot the subtle signs of autism if the person is behaving like a disturbed person?

Have your mental health professionals talked about resolving your BPD issues? Presumably if you can acquire BPD through your exposure to the world it might be possible to coax you away from it if your BPD can be unpicked from your autism.

Are you able to separate what, in your behaviour, is due to autism and what is due to BPD? I imagine that this might not be possible because you won't really have memories of life before you acquired the BPD?

Thank you. If you seek out and nurture your good bits then the bad bits will become less important and less of an issue. Being able to be to be good to yourself is a thing that you may have to seek out and encourage. Also, if you make an effort to consider other people's situations then they will reciprocate by being nicer back to you. This is a thing that I have had to work on. I think I used to be thought of as selfish or self absorbed (no surprise there is there?) but I make more of an effort now to deliberately avoid annoying other people now. I also have realised that I am a bit dyspraxic so I have let go of any ambitions to be a better squash player (I lost 99% of the games that I played in any case so this was not too difficult to let go). On the other hand, I enjoy solving problems so I am working on making that into more of a formal strength in my work by being more methodical and patient with my work.

For what it's worth "the way things should be" isn't a phrase I use too much. Life is more about what you can make of it rather than it being pre-destined. Life unfolds in front of one as you make choices every day.

I know there's not a black and white way of saying someone is good or bad. I have felt like I'm bad for years...it just feels like the way things should be. For what it's worth, you seem good too. :)

I really am not trying to insult you, please forgive me for coming across like that.

The word "good" has many meanings and it means different things to different people. In my eyes then, according to your description of yourself, you are an entirely good person. I really don't care about your so-called defects. I care much more about whether you are malicious or kind. You sound kind so I think you are perfectly fine. Autistic people can trip over the language and use words in very black and white ways and you think that you are bad because you have failed some sort of test for goodness. There are many ways to be good and I have no doubt at all that you are good in more ways than one.

I think it's a bit of an insult that you're even questioning me on that. Of course I want to be good, who doesn't? I don't want to hurt anyone, of course I don't. I'm bad because I'm defective. In Philosophy, they taught us that a good thing/person/object is something that fulfils its purpose. Therefore a good human being is someone who is popular, social, loved. And I'm not loved. So it makes me feel that I must be bad.

IWouldRatherBeWriting said:

I'm sorry but that's quite simplistic. I don't deserve to give myself a break. I don't deserve to be happier. I'm a bad person.

Doing bad things and being a bad person are two separate things. We are all human and susceptible to making mistakes, to making bad choices, to doing bad things. There are bad people however, people who deliberately and consciously go out to hurt other people without a care for the consequences. The label psychopath is the closest label you can get to scientifically labelling badness. People who have autism are not psychopaths. We may be conditioned to react badly to situations, we may not cope with stress brilliantly, we may not be saints in everything we do but do you identify more with people who want to be good or do you identify with people that end up in prison with life sentences for heinous crimes? It seems to me that you want to be on the right side of that division but you are struggling to understand where you fit in?

It's OK - just because I've got issues it doesn't mean I'll do anything. Thank you, though.

Hi,

To both IWouldRatherBeWriting and to anyone reading this thread who feels unable to cope with distress or despair, please remember that MIND have information pages on coping with self harm or suicidal feelings based on the experiences of people who’ve been through it that could be helpful to you.

Please also remember that if you are very close to doing something to hurt yourself - call 999 now or go to your nearest A&E department. There should be someone there to support you and make sure you get ongoing support. 

If you need help with an autism related issue, our helpline can be emailed on autismhelpline@nas.org.uk or they’re open Monday to Thursday 10am-4pm and Friday 9am-3pm on 0808 800 4104.

Best wishes,

Nellie-Mod

I'm sorry. I know it's simplistic to say. In reality there's nothing I could say to change how you feel. I know nothing about mental health or anything really. And you've been exposed to the highly critical world around you for a long time.

I only really have my 10 year old daughter. I don't have anyone else really. My mother is only there to support my daughter. And I'm not just morbidly obese at 22 stone, I'm also weird ugly at any size.

But think back to how a baby feels. They have very few skills, but they don't feel useless or undeserving. Those things have to be learned. They feel perfect & that everything they need is always available. We live in a world that places far too much value on ability. So much value placed on a persons ability even before birth. Then ever after your ability to smile, use a toilet, walk, work etc. But even if you couldn't do any of those things you're still just as valuable. If you wouldn't devalue someone else for their lack of ability, the last person you should devalue is yourself.